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Featured Who Gave the Right to Interpret "Spiritually"?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by John of Japan, Mar 27, 2017.

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  1. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    First of all, I most certainly do expect a literal, physical return of Christ in glory.

    But let's look at the locusts of Revelation 9:3-10. I read a Dispensational interpretation of these creatures which suggested that they were attack helicopters. Do you regard that as being a literal interpretation? Also, the Grammatical/historical method of interpretation involves asking what the text would have meant to the original readers. Would the 1st or early 2nd Century readers of Revelation have thought to themselves, "Ah! These creatures obviously represent attack helicopters"? ;)

    Would those same readers have read Revelation 13:16-17 and thought to themselves, "Ah! these are obviously silicon chip implants" or whatever the current Dispensational interpretation may be?
     
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  2. PrmtvBptst1832

    PrmtvBptst1832 Active Member
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    Yes. You asked if I expected to see the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost
    I believe in the deity of Christ, but what does that have to do with anything?
     
  3. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Is Jesus the Son of God presently also the Son of Man, in heaven, as flesh and bones, incorruptible?

    Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

    But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    I do not know that I am real sure. How many do you think will be visible?
     
  4. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Does the Word made flesh look different since ascending to heaven than the Word before being made flesh?
     
  5. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    Had you considered what I wrote before replying, you would have read "unjustified allegorical/spiritual interpretation."

    Paul's use of allegory is inspired.

    But who would have thought the way he equates Jerusalem and the Jews to Hagar and Ishmael was valid?

    That is a powerful as Isaiah's denunciation of "the rulers of Sodom." A dreadful metaphor. Very antisemitic! Stephen denounced the Jewish leaders as "uncircumcised."

    The spiritual IS the true understanding.
     
    #85 Covenanter, Mar 29, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2017
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  6. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    As concerns the parable, everything.
     
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I did not read the 5 pages of response to this question, I am just addressing the OP.

    The answer is God gave the right for us to submit to God's word or under various guises to rewrite it so it fits our fancy.
     
  8. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    So, wait a minute, the belief that I have that allegorical/spiritual interpretation is wrong is now an "accusation"? I beg to differ. It is a heart-felt, Scripture lead, deep conviction of the soul.
    I don't understand "interpretation" as "systematic study of Scripture." I see it as simply determining what God actually did say in His Word. That may take seconds, or it may take much study.
    True, literal interpretation develops dispensationalism, but it also develops the historic premil position. My grandfather sharply criticized dispensationalism, but was premil, pretrib from his own study, since he believed in literal interpretation.
    This cleverly evades the OP, which says that if all prophecy of the first coming of Christ was literal, where does the right come from to "spiritualize" prophecies of the Second Coming. What is your answer? (This post by you is not an answer.)

    Now, your position here seems to negate the OT prophecies concerning Israel that are yet unfulfilled. This is a case of reading the NT back into the OT, as CT and NCT do. Here are just a few yet unfulfilled prophecies of Israel from just the major prophets:

    Isaiah: The rebuilding of Israel (esp. ch. 26)

    Jeremiah: The rebuilding and salvation of Israel (especially ch. 31), Jews regathered from the whole world, Israel in the seven year tribulation period (esp. ch. 30), Israel’s wonderful future (esp. ch. 33)

    Ezekiel: The rebuilding and salvation of Israel (ch. 20), the revived kingdom of David (esp. ch. 34), the valley of dry bones, pointing to the restoration of Israel (ch. 37), the New Jerusalem and temple during the Millennium (ch. 40-48)
     
  9. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    We certainly agree there, but that was not my point. There is far more to a literal interpretation of the 2nd Coming than that.

    This is completely irrelevant to true dispensationalism and this conversation. Whatever author you read who said that certainly was not a scholar in dispensationalism.


    Again, this is irrelevant to the present discussion. Please go back and read the OP and tell me where the right comes from to interpret any prophecy of the 2nd Coming allegorically, since all prophecies of the 1st Coming were fulfilled literally.

    I have even given a Scriptural basis in Neh. 8:8 for literal interpretation. Exactly when, Scripturally (not historically, since that was Philo), did the Jews of the Bible begin interpreting the prophecies concerning their nation allegorically? (It is patently evident from many NT Scriptures that the disciples interpreted future kingdom prophecies literally.)

    In other words, this is a straw man argument (no offense). :Cool
     
    #89 John of Japan, Mar 29, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2017
  10. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    You are making the typical error of anachronization of the typical allegorizer. The Greek word for "allegory" in Gal. 2 does not mean the same as the word "allegory" in 21st century English. An allegory nowadays is fiction, like Pilgrim's Progress. In Biblical language the meaning was simply "symbolic language."

    In the case of the "allegory" in Gal. 2:24, it was a type, a somewhat more complicated metaphor. As Jope pointed out, it was based on an historical event (as are all types), and therefore not the same as modern allegorical interpretation, which takes non-historical Scripture and "spiritualizes" it.
     
  11. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Hal Lindsey. The Late, Great Planet Earth.

    If that is where Covenanter is getting his information on dispensationalism I can see why he is so confused.

    (And this is coming from an historic chiliast who probably agrees with your grand dad more than with you on this subject.) :)
     
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  12. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    So what do you do about the many, many OT prophecies concerning Israel that are not yet fulfilled? (See my post #88 for just a few.) All fulfilled OT prophecies about Israel were fulfilled literally.

    This is the whole point of the OP, which this post answers in no way, shape or form. Since 1st Coming prophecies were all fulfilled literally, where do you get the right to interpret prophecies of the 2nd Coming "spiritually"?
    "Hyper literally"?? There is no such thing. You either interpret literally or not. When the Bible says, "This same Jesus...shall so come in like manner," either He is coming physically (literal interpretation) or coming (or came already) "spiritually," (allegorizing).
    Again, metaphors which do not answer the OP at all. Why is it that allegorizers on this thread cannot seem to understand what a metaphor is?

    Again, please answer the OP. Either literal prophecies of the 2nd Coming will be fulfilled literally, or they will not be fulfilled literally, even though all prophecies of the 1st coming were fulfilled literally. So again, where did you get the right to interpret prophecy allegorically? Don't give me metaphors, give me Scriptural justification for your allegorizing.
     
  13. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I read your study, and I think it shows a good knowledge of Scripture, and a love for Christ. However, your position on Revelation is the historical view, correct? Therefore, your study shows allegorical interpretation. I believe that view is mistaken, based for one thing on the fact that Revelation's OT parallel is Daniel, and Daniel's prophecies have unfailingly been fulfilled literally. For example, the numbers in Daniel's 70 weeks were literally fulfilled concerning Christ's death. However, you do not interpret the 42 months of Rev. 13:5 literally.

    So that brings me again to my OP: where does the right to interpret prophecy allegorically come from, since all OT prophecies of the 1st Coming of Christ were fulfilled literally?
     
  14. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Ah, yes, good old Hal. Haven't read him in decades! He certainly is not a dispensational scholar.

    Now there's irony for you! Grandpa was not real pleased when I started hanging with those dispensationalists at BWM. :Frown
     
  15. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    By the way. Hal Lindsey's rather silly assertion is what happens when you accept an allegorical interpretation. :D:D:D
     
  16. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    John, you and I are going to have to get together in person sometime in the not too distant future.

    I will not be attending the ETS annual meeting in Providence, RI this year, but plan on being in Denver for the 2018 meeting (November 13-15).

    Any chance you can get a few days off? :)

    We might even coerce Dr. Bob into coming. :D
     
  17. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Well, we agree on the only thing that is vital, and that is good! :)
    Well help me out here, John. Give me what you consider to be a literal interpretation of Revelation 9:1-12 and Revelation 13:16-18. How do you interpret these 'literal metaphors' as you call them?
    I have no problem with Nehemiah 8:8. As far as I'm concerned, in my interpretation of Rev.13, I was giving the sense. But the disciples were all over the place with their literal interpretations.
    "Beware the leaven of the scribes and Pharisees" "It's because we have no bread."
    "I have food to eat that you do not know about" "Has anyone bought Him anything to eat?"
    "Where I am going you cannot follow Me, but you shall follow Me afterwards" "Lord, why can't I follow You now?"
    Our Lord's language was not allegorical, but it was figurative and spiritual, and that is how we need to interpret Him.
    None taken (though it's not a straw man argument) :p
     
  18. The Parson

    The Parson Member
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    If you don't mind my asking y'all a question, does anyone here believe that the scriptures say what they mean, and mean what they say? Please, just take a moment however before you answer the question. Just curious...
     
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  19. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I don't believe I've used the term "literal metaphors." And I don't really want to take the time to do an exegesis of Rev. 9, which would distract from the OP. However, 13:16-18 is quite easily taken literally. Why would there be doubt about a simple mark on the right hand or forehead?

    The disciples were like those who interpret allegorically, especially those on the BB who have been posting on this thread. They did not seem to know what a metaphor was, though Jesus used them all the time! Even you, as intelligent as you appear to be, keep making the mistake that says the use of a metaphor means you can interpret allegorically. That's bogus!
    How in the world is "I am the bread of life," a metaphor, somehow more spiritual than "Go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature"?? And what gives us the right to interpret passages that are not figures of speech with non-literal meanings?

    Here is a list of some figures of speech in the Bible from Paul Lee Tan's excellent book, The Interpretation of Prophecy. They are each easily distinguishable as figures of speech, and none of them indicate that non-figures of speech may be interpreted symbolically:

    1. Metaphor. A metaphor uses nouns to compare unlike items (Joel 2:31, Luke 13:32, Is. 41:14).
    2. Simile. A comparison: a simile is an expression that uses “like” or “as” to compare two things (Rev. 1:14, 6:12, 16:13).
    3. Metonymy. “Use of one name for another related name' (Rev. 11:8).
    4. Synecdoche. “Similar to metonymy but physical resemblance is stressed”: “Behold the Lord maketh the earth (Israel) empty" (Is. 24:1).
    5. Personification. This gives a human personality to something which has no life (Is. 24:4, 55:12).
    6. Apostrophe. “Addressing of an absent object”(1 Cor. 15:55).
    7. Hyperbole. Hyperbole is a purposeful exaggeration (John 21:25).
    8. Irony. Using words with an opposite meaning to portray sarcasm (1 Kings 18:27).
    9. Allegory. “An extended metaphor” (Gal. 4:24).
    10. Parable. A parable is an extended metaphor or simile, “an earthly story with a heavenly meaning” (Matt. 13:3, 25:1).
    11. Riddle. “Statements designed to puzzle and hide. The Scripture contains a very restrained use of riddles. When a riddle is used, it is often indicated as such (Rev. 13:18 ‘Here is wisdom…666’) or is immediately solved in the context (Samson’s riddle)” (Judges 14:12-18).
    12. Fable. “Animals or things in imaginary actions. There are only two fables in Scripture” (Judges 9:7-20, 2 Kings 14:8-11).
    13. Type. An institution, event or person in the Old Testament which prefigures New Testament truth. For example, Jonah prefigures Christ (Matt. 12:40).
     
  20. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I'd love to be there. In the meantime, my son and I are hoping to be at the Bible Faculty Summit again this year: Bible Faculty Summit at Appalachian Bible College August 1–3, 2017

    You and Dr. Bob would enjoy it. The guys from Maranatha and Central usually go too.
     
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