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Featured Who Holds To Covenant theology here?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Yeshua1, Jan 17, 2020.

  1. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Reverse it. Dispensationalism is dependent on pre-wrath eschatology.
     
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Could be. But then pre-wrath eschatology is independent of Dispensationalism (which is kinda my point). The parent does not owe his existence on the child, but the child owes his existence to the parent.


    I am historic pre-mil, BTW. But it is not a hill I'd die on.
     
  3. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    That may be your point but you are going to be hard-pressed to find a pre-wrath eschatology outside of Dispensationalism. My textbook copy of Dispensationalism Today is buried in a box in my garage but if I remember Ryrie correctly, he said that both the separation of Israel and the Church and a pre-wrath rapture are the hinges on which Dispensationalism turns.

    Now I have to go and break open old boxes to go find that book. Thanks a lot, Jon! LOL
     
  4. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    This has been a very good discussion but I am going to bow out now.
     
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  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I guess I am having trouble understanding your point with Despensationalism and pre-wrath eschatology.

    On one hand I understand you to be saying that Dispensationalism depends on pre-wrath eschatology (if there was no pre-wrath eschatology then Dispensationalism would never had been developed).

    But on another hand I understand you to be saying pre-wrath eschatology is Dispensationalism (without Dispensationalism there would be no pre-wrath eschatology).

    I am having trouble reconciling the two ideas (I am probably misunderstanding you on at least one point, perhaps both).


    Personally I do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. Most people who explain their reasoning to me (most are family) hold the view because they do not believe the Church will be objects of wrath. I also do not believe the Church will be objects of wrath - but when the Church is persecuted they are not objects of God's wrath either. We suffer for God's glory, but are not children of wrath. So I have not really seen a reason to hold to pre-tribulation rapture except a couple of verses which are not enough for me to form a hard doctrine.
     
  6. xlsdraw

    xlsdraw Active Member

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    I believe that the Great Tribulation is grossly misunderstood. Why would one that believes God already need to go through the Great Tribulation? We have believed without seeing and have acknowledged His chastening as to our benefit. The Great Tribulation is full of seen evidences of God's Sovereign power and chastening, designed to prod along the Thomas types into faith. Have we not seen that some children just trust and obey with little chastening needed, while other children require seemingly perpetual chastening to develop that child like faith? Do we give up on the difficult child? We must remember that God's love is long-suffering, a characteristic not natural to man and difficult for us to comprehend. Have any of us really ever forgave seventy times seven, except it were our own child?
     
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  7. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    You make it hard to "bow out" when asking questions. LOL

    Let me try and make sense.

    Dispensationalism does depend on a pre-wrath eschatology. If there is no pre-wrath eschatology, Dispensationalism crumbles. So, rhetorically, is can be said (for example) that a pre-tribulational or even a mid-tribulational eschatological view is Dispensationalism. It is like saying that a pre-wrath view is so essential to the Dispensational system that it is Dispensationalism's real identity.

    For the sake of clarity, let me offer a non-theological comparison. I am a New York Giant fan. Back during the Bill Parcels era, the greatest player the Giants had was #56, Lawrence Taylor. Arguably, "L.T." is the greatest linebacker who ever played the game. Historically, the Giants have always been known for their defense. As the greatest defensive player the Giants ever had, some New York sportswriters actually said he was the Giants. What they meant was that he embodied everything it meant to be a Giant. It was a rhetorical instrument used for effect. A pre-wrath eschatology is so critical to Dispensationalism that it is impossible to think of it in other than a dispensational context. Id est, a pre-wrath eschatology embodies Dispensationalism (it is Dispensationalism)!

    OK. Now I am really bowing out.
     
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Thank you for bowing back in to answer my questions. :)

    I understand what you are saying now. It is like Calvinism and individual election. Calvinism depends on individual election but is not derived from that idea.

    I do not know that Dispensationalism depends on pre-wrath eschatology. To be fair, it would take someone who holds to Dispensationalism to explain it to me before I would agree.

    I do appreciate you explanations, however. Holding neither position it is easy for me to understand why God gifted me with two ears, two eyes, and one mouth. ;)
     
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    ". . . And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: . . . And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. . . ." -- Revelation 21:12-14. The Bride of Christ is made up of both Israel and His church.
     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Back when Adam actually had the means to keep the Law of God. as had not yet fallen into sinful state.
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Most of the really Good reformed theology is worthwhile, at least until it gets into Infant Baptism!
     
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  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    So are the ones in our camp between NCT, how to really keep the Lord's day, and mode of baptism, and which Confession is best!
     
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    CT for proper Sotierology, and lean Dispy for Eschatology?
     
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I think the real tension are between the extremes of both sides, as in those who see nothing else for national Israel period, and those who see jews still under the OC to save them!
     
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  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    when you say pre wrath, do you mean pre trib rapture?
     
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  16. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    It goes deeper than that. Dispensationalism, at its core, recognizes that God interacts with humanity differently in different times. He does not interact with humanity the same way he did with Adam, nor the same way he did at the time of the Prophets, or the same way he did while Christ was on earth. Everyone recognizes that, hopefully.
     
  17. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    David. Its called Civenants Theology!! The covenants continue to reveal God. Lol
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Some say Covenants, others call them dispensations!
     
  19. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    For those who want to understand the differences between Baptist C.T, and Paedobaptist C.T., there is an excellent book, The Distinctiveness of Baptist Covenant Theology by Pascal Denault (SGCB, ISBN 978-1-59925-325-1).
    The very earliest Particular Baptists believed in Covenant Theology, and the very first book, by a P.B., A Treatise concerning the Lawfull Subjects of Baptisme by John Spilsbury (1646), is basically covenantal.
     
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