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Who Is Drawn by the Father?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by davidtaylorjr, Jul 2, 2019.

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  1. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    Are all men drawn? Are only some men drawn? Who is drawn? I have seen some people say literally the following two things:

    1. All are drawn.
    2. Not all are drawn but all saved were drawn but not all drawn were saved.

    Which is it? You cannot have it both ways!

    The biblical answer is that:

    1. Not all are drawn.
    2. All that are drawn by the Father are saved.
     
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  2. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Scripture please
     
  3. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    All of it.
     
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  4. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Well when you figure one out I'll be back
     
  5. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    Don't even act like you don't know what we are talking about. You have been in these conversations as well for days. You just won't answer because you know your logic will be torn to shreds. Glad I made your signature by the way. At least you post some truth.
     
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  6. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    ἑλκύω (Helko...pronounced hel-koo-o) is used in both John 6:44 and John 12:32.

    It means the following...

    drag, dragged, draw, draws, drew, haul

    It is used in John 18:10 when Peter drew his sword.
    It is used in John 21:11 when Peter drew the net to shore.
    It is used in Acts of the Apostles 16:19 when they dragged Paul and Silas to the marketplace.
    It is used Acts of the Apostles 21:30 when they dragged Paul out of the temple and shut the door behind him.

    All of these mean to show that when drawn, it is an effectual drawing. This saying everybody w/o exception is being drawn is bogus. If this were so, then everybody w/o exception is saved, because everyone who is drawn, comes.
     
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  7. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    The under lined is so funny I nearly fell of my chair laughing.:p
    MB
     
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  8. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Let’s take a shot at some honest conversation.

    • [John 6:44 NASB] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
    • [John 12:32 NASB] 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
    In both cases, the word “draw” is “hello” [G1670], but “No one” is “oudeis” [G3762] while “all men” is “pas” [G3956].

    So from the context, are the draws spoken of identical?
    • [John 6:41-51 NASB] 41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, "I am the bread that came down out of heaven." 42 They were saying, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, 'I have come down out of heaven'?" 43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. 46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48 "I am the bread of life. 49 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 "This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 "I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh."

    • [John 12:27-43 NASB] 27 "Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, 'Father, save Me from this hour'? But for this purpose I came to this hour. 28 "Father, glorify Your name." Then a voice came out of heaven: "I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again." 29 So the crowd [of people] who stood by and heard it were saying that it had thundered; others were saying, "An angel has spoken to Him." 30 Jesus answered and said, "This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes. 31 "Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." 33 But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die. 34 The crowd then answered Him, "We have heard out of the Law that the Christ is to remain forever; and how can You say, 'The Son of Man must be lifted up'? Who is this Son of Man?" 35 So Jesus said to them, "For a little while longer the Light is among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes. 36 "While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light." These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them. 37 But though He had performed so many signs before them, [yet] they were not believing in Him. 38 [This was] to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?" 39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40 "HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM." 41 These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him. 42 Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing [Him,] for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.
     
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  9. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    I believe these are those spoken of in John 6:37.
     
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  10. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    There is a common drawing that occurs when the Gospel is proclaimed. The young ruler who lived the riches of this world esteemed the gospel that Jesus preached of value only to the extent that it would fit within his moralistic worldview. However, he was quite unwilling (and unable) to truly follow Christ because he was not effectually called. The effectual call is the work of the Holy Spirit whereby He brings the Elect to the place where they both hear and believe the Gospel.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
     
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  11. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    We don't know that he didn't come to Christ. We just know he didn't come at that point in time.
     
  12. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    All we know is what the text reveals. We need to go with that. If we run into him in glory we can rejoice!

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
     
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  13. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    We go with the text. You can't say he didn't come to Christ. We don't know.
     
  14. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    I am going with his spiritual condition at the time. To quote Horace Vandergelder, "You go your way and I will go mine." LOL

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
     
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  15. Jesus Saves!

    Jesus Saves! Member

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    Not to argue or try to change what anyone believes. Just sharing a few thoughts. Scripture teaches that hell was made for the devil and his angels.
    Matthew 25:41 KJVS
    [41] Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

    If all didn't have the possibility of being saved, wouldn't it be made for those too. But hell enlarges its border daily because people reject Christ. I believe according to scripture God calls and enlightens us to the truth through the preached gospel by the power of the Holy Ghost. It takes that call to open our eyes to our lost condition. Then, we have the opportunity to believe by faith or not. It's not his will that any should perish. If we turn Christ away , there is nothing else to turn to for salvation. I believe God gets glory when we obediently follow Christ.
     
  16. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    "All that are drawn by the Father are saved"

    How about a bible verse that states this.

    Reminds me of a funny video i saw.
     
  17. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Found it.

    if you can't stand watching the whole thing, particularly look at 5mins 20 secs into the video


     
  18. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    That was awful.
    They started out by confusing DRAW (which means to compel by force) with INVITE (which is a completely different Greek word that was NOT used in that verse). Then they reverse “No one can come unless dragged” to “Everyone that comes was invited” and claim those two verses mean exactly the same thing.

    Of course some people can refuse an invitation. That is the point of Romans 3 ... EVERYONE refused the invitation. That is why God then DRAWS (drag, compel by force) “His sheep” (John 10) to Jesus.

    So no one comes to the party unless the Father dragged them there, but everyone at the party will raise the roof with the Son.

    Who is it that you think is stronger than the Irresistible DRAW of God and was not at the party?

    That was a hack job. I respect a good challenging contrary opinion, but that was not one.
     
  19. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Even Jesus gives self commentary:

    65And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

    Well where did he ever say granted? its verse 44.

    Even if you define Granted as forced dragging, nothing says all forced are saved.

    You can only say that those who had been saved undergone granted, drawn, or forced dragged.


    44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

    Lets put on your glasses:

    44 Everyone has to come to me If the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.


    Both sentences don't mean the same thing. Look at the word CAN. Its not even WILL. It only points to a potential capacity.

    And if you look at the greek its even more glaring using the word dynatai. Which is basically "ABLE TO"


    So even if you want to insist its a DRAG, it only qualifies the CAPACITY of ABLE TO δύναται.

    What we would want is to erase the word Can, "able to" , Dynatai. and replace it with something that equates to WILL COME.
     
  20. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, it is late and I already wasted too much time on a video hatchet job of exegesis.

    Those God draws, Jesus raises.

    Until you really grasp the subjects and verbs of the sentence, the rest is just dross.

    Have fun, but you have nothing to teach worth learning.
     
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