I tried tyhis in another section but it went no where...so here goes -
If I fail to share the gospel with "lost person so-and-so" and he dies 10 minutes later ... was his going to hell my fault? or his fault?
Who are the elect?
If only certain people are "of the elect" and if one of these elect does not respond in faith to the saving power of Jesus, will they go to hell? In other words, can one of God's elect wind up in hell? {their power to resist is greater that God's power to call}
who is responsible?
Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Jensen, Jul 9, 2004.
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or his fault?[/QUOTE]
Those who die in lost in their sin go to Hell. Now would you like to question whether it is God's fault or not and question his justice?
Who are the elect? [/QUOTE]
Those whom God has chosen.
If only certain people are "of the elect" and if one of these elect does not respond in faith to the saving power of Jesus, will they go to hell? In other words, can one of God's elect wind up in hell? {their power to resist is greater that God's power to call} [/QUOTE]
If they had free will and God was not sovereign, as the Arminians teach, this would be possible. But, if God elects you, then you will be saved.
Joseph Botwinick -
Here is where I am trying to go with this idea.... The SBC (of which I am a part of) keeps emphasizing that "baptisms are down" and "fewer people are being saved" and "what ever happened to evangelization?" If it is God who saves, and God won't allow His elect to go to hell, then what is it all about ... numbers???? We, as believers, have a responsibility to share Jesus with the lost, however, are we to "convert the non-elect" also? [I heard John Macarthur say that some people do such a bad job at presenting the gospel that even the non-elect respond]
I am just curious as to what the issue is in the SBC... arminianism?
That brings up another question.... can you really believe in eternal security (once saved always saved... perservearance of the saints) and and be called an arminian? I've always heard the basic doctrines of grace all tie in together...its either 5 point or no point.???? -
If it is God who saves,[/QUOTE]
Is this actually in doubt? Of course it is God who saves.
and God won't allow His elect to go to hell, then what is it all about ... numbers????[/QUOTE]
This is my opinion, as I stated above.
We, as believers, have a responsibility to share Jesus with the lost,[/QUOTE]
I agree with this statement. But, I would say that this comes as an obligation because this is what God has commanded us to do? That is our motivation.
however, are we to "convert the non-elect" also? [/QUOTE]
Nope. That is God's job. Our job is merely to obey God and witness to others by sharing the Gospel with them.
[I heard John Macarthur say that some people do such a bad job at presenting the gospel that even the non-elect respond][/QUOTE]
From what I understand, Jonathon Edwards was not a great, charismatic Orater. And yet, God used him to bring about the great awakening.
I am just curious as to what the issue is in the SBC... arminianism?[/QUOTE]
I do think there is a lot of that is, unfortunately, present in the SBC.
That brings up another question.... can you really believe in eternal security (once saved always saved... perservearance of the saints) and and be called an arminian? I've always heard the basic doctrines of grace all tie in together...its either 5 point or no point.???? [/QUOTE]
There are those who don't know the specifics of 5 point Calvinism because they were never taught that truly believe you can hold to free will and OSAS. They are wrong, though, IMO.
Joseph Botwinick -
Can any arminians throw in their 2 cents on this? Can one of God's elect fail to have saving faith and end up in hell?
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#2. The problem is in fact - that the Arminian view of "compelling motivation" and "calling the lost to salvation" is the correct model. Which means that NOT witnessing IS showing a lack of concern for the lost, is not in God's will (For God is not WILLING that any should perish) -- and failure to witness - failure to evangelize DOES result in "dark counties" as they used to say.
IF Christians choose to "Get sidetracked" then evangelism is placed on the back burner and we do not expect to see conversions to Christ increase as Christians become more distracted.
In Christ,
Bob -
Joseph Botwinick -
#2. The problem is in fact - that the Arminian view of "compelling motivation" and "calling the lost to salvation" is the correct model.[/QUOTE]
There is, to my knowledge, no Biblical support for that model. Therefore, it is in error.
Which means that NOT witnessing IS showing a lack of concern for the lost, is not in God's will (For God is not WILLING that any should perish) -- and failure to witness - failure to evangelize DOES result in "dark counties" as they used to say.
IF Christians choose to "Get sidetracked" then evangelism is placed on the back burner and we do not expect to see conversions to Christ increase as Christians become more distracted.
In Christ,
Bob [/QUOTE]
1. Witnessing is done out of obedience to Christ command primarily. It is not man who saves or who convinces others to be saved. That is God's job so that their salvation will not be based on the wisdom of man, but the power of God:
2. Calvinists are not taught not to witness. We do so because we wish to be obedient to God, because God has put that desire in us.
3. We witness by preaching the Word, and by telling our testiminies. It is not my job to come up with some Bible Code or Left the Scripture Behind Movie to convince others of the truth of God. My job is to preach Christ and him crucified and to pray for the lost. God is the one who will bring conviction that leads to salvation to those whom he elects. That is not my job. I don't save people. God does that.
Joseph Botwinick -
You can bet I'll be using that title now when referring to the books/movie... -
Also, props to JB for his "Left the Scripture Behind" analysis! -
Joseph said
However note that Paul does not simply "go because he is told to go" RATHER he is trying to save the lost.
Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation
Romans 91I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,
2that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart.
3For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,
4who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
Romans 11
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.
Paul does not present a "nothing I do makes any difference" model.
Paul does not say "before I preach they are already born-again saints".
In Christ,
Bob