Whose morality should we legislate?

[canadyjd]

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

- from the U.S. Declaration of Independence

U.S. Declaration of Independence is not scripture. Show me from scripture where Christians are told they have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness; and that they should make certain, violently if necessary, their government gives them such.

peace to youraying:

 

[TCGreek]

U.S. Declaration of Independence is not scripture. Show me from scripture where Christians are told they have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness; and that they should make certain, violently if necessary, their government gives them such.

peace to youraying:

Good observation!

 

[KenH]

U.S. Declaration of Independence is not scripture.

I know, but we are discussing government legislation in this thread, not the Scriptures.

 

[npetreley]

Another thread bitten by the, "everybody wants to be a comedian" bug.

Pathetic and sad.

Yeah. There ought to be a law against having fun.

 

[canadyjd]

I know, but we are discussing government legislation in this thread, not the Scriptures.

Well, Dale-C started the thread, and he said...

Dale-C said: Fortunately, we are not left to what we think is best. The Bible lays out the purpose of government. It does not layout every last detail but it gives principle. Any law that is against that principle is bad law. So, my opinion and your opinion do not count.

Only God's does.

I asked Dale-C where he found that "principle" in scripture. He hasn't answered yet.

So I'm trying to figure out where in the Bible we find our authority, as Christians, to legislate morality through a secular government, and how far does that authority extend.

I you believe it derives from Romans 13, please tell me how far the authority extends into the personal lives of Christians and non-christians.

peace to youraying:

 

[KenH]

I do not believe that Christians have the right to legislate morality - meaning interfering with another person's exercise of his rights when he is not interfering with another person's rights - through the use of government.

 

[canadyjd]

I do not believe that Christians have the right to legislate morality - meaning interfering with another person's exercise of his rights when he is not interfering with another person's rights - through the use of government.

Where in scripture do you find a list of a person's "rights" before a government or before God?

Please don't misunderstand me, or think I'm trying to be flippant. I thank God I live in the United States and appreciate the need for laws against persons and property.

As Christians, I think, we must be wary of using the secular government to enforce Christian beliefs.

peace to youraying:

 

[JustChristian]

Mr

Whoa! Then you have just made government in to god!

PLease read Psalm 2.

ROM 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

 

[Pipedude]

Here are a few ideas for consideration:

(1) In America, the people corporately are the rulers. The legislators and executives are hired servants. That complicates the "higher powers" passages.

(2) A "right" is what is yours according to law. Which law? Natural rights are those which are yours "by nature," a big topic of study in the 18th century, based on western thought all the way back to the Greeks. "Endowed by their Creator with certain unalianable rights . . ." refers to natural rights in that lingo.

(3) In the American tradition, the power of government justly extended to four areas: public order, public safety, public health, and public morals.

(4) All law is legislated morality, or procedural thereunto. Issues of public order, health, safety, and morals do not conflict with natural rights when each is interpreted correctly.

(5) To interpret these things correctly is the work of philosophers and theologians. Since neither is to be found in government any more, and the controlling principle is now "whom must I rape in order to get reelected?", I just wasted ten minutes I could have spent clipping my toenails.

 

[Dale-c]

(1) In America, the people corporately are the rulers. The legislators and executives are hired servants. That complicates the "higher powers" passages.

I don't think it complicates it that much.
The reason for that is because the purpose and duty of civil government is the same no matter what the form is.
I agree with Ken pretty closely in practice as to what should and should not be enforced.
Religion of course should NOT be enforced, but murder should.
A great example of this is abortion, no matter what the form of government they never have the right to allow abortion.


As to what the proper method of dealing with a government that allows murder.. I am not sure...I am sill studying that.

 

[Pipedude]

I don't think it complicates it that much. . . .

As to what the proper method of dealing with a government that allows murder.. I am not sure...I am sill studying that.

Kinda complicated, ain't it?

 

[KenH]

As Christians, I think, we must be wary of using the secular government to enforce Christian beliefs.

I agree. I am totally against that.

 

[KenH]

As to what the proper method of dealing with a government that allows murder

Thankfully, we have the ability to change that through the ballot box in these United States