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Why did God create the Universe - revisited

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Feb 17, 2018.

  1. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Indeed, "God is a spirit" [KJB], John 4:24 KJB. It does not say God is spirit [which would be spiritism, on numerous levels].

    Angels are also indeed "spirits", but they are "persons", even as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are "persons", and God the Father, and the Son, have specific "form", "shape", "image" and "likeness" [while the nature of the Holy Spirit has not been explained to us in scripture, but we have been told He is a person, as much as the Father and Son are persons]:

    God the Father is a person, with glorious body and form: Job 13:8; Hebrews 1:3; Daniel 7:9,10,13; Revelation 4:1-11, etc

    The Son, Christ Jesus, is a person, with a glorified body and form: Hebrews 1:3; 2 Corinthians 2:10; Matthew 27:24; Deuteronomy 27:25, the very "fellow" of the Father, in Zechariah 13:7; Matthew 26:31; Mark 14:27.

    The Holy Spirit, is also a person [manifesting in different forms]: Revelation 18:1; John 14:16,26, etc.

    Angels are persons, having body and form: Hebrews 1:9, see also Hebrews 1:2, 11:3, 12:1; Matthew 18:10-13; Luke 15:4-7; john 14:1-4, see also "just persons" [which need no repentance, the unfallen beings of the unfallen worlds], described in Mark 16:5; Daniel 9:21; Luke 24:4; John 20:12; Acts 1:10, etc.

    Mankind are also persons, having body and form: Galatians 2:6; Mark 12:14; Matthew 22:16; Malachi 1:8; Job 32:21, and see also the wicked "vile person", "wicked person", "profane [person]", "good [person]", in Proverbs 6::12; 1 Peter 1:17, etc.
    God the Father and Son has form, shape [and mankind was made in that image and likeness, see Genesis 1:26,27; Colossians 1:15 KJB], John 5:37; Philippians 2:6; Daniel 3:25; Genesis 18:4, 19:2; Exodus 24:10,11; Psalms 18:9; Exodus 33:20,22,23; Daniel 7:9,10,13; Ezekiel 1:1,8,26-28; Acts 7:55,56; Psalms 24:1-10; John 20:27; 1 Peter 3:22; Matthew 18:10; Revelation 1:13-20, 2:1, 4:1-11, 5:1-14; Hebrews 1:13; Colossians 3:1-6; Numbers 12:8; Isaiah 45:23, 48:3; Revelation 3:16; Psalms 89:34; Psalms 104:33, 146:2; Acts 17:28, etc KJB.

    Jesus perceived in his heart/mind/spirit: Mark 2:8; Luke 10:21, 23:46; John 11:33, 13:21

    Men are spirits, speaking of their heart/mind: Hebrews 12:23; 1 Peter 3:19

    God the Father, is the Father of all spirits: Hebrews 12:9

    Men [mankind] and angels [the beings of heaven] are His children.

    Do not take up the false greek idea of ghosts [for Jesus must correct you, as He did them]: Matthew 14:26; Mark 6:49; Luke 24:37,39

    The devil is also a "spirit": 1 Kings 22:21; 2 Chronicles 18:20; Job 4:15, but notice that the devils is real tangible physical being, as in Isaiah 14, and Ezekiel 28; Revelation 20, etc.
     
    #21 One Baptism, Feb 22, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2018
  2. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Please see the greater study that was put together here [as what follows is a mere portion of it] - TinyUpload.com - best file hosting solution, with no limits, totaly free

    [Subsection: The Nature of Angels, Christ in the Resurrection, and our own Translation or Resurrection]

    Many have a misunderstanding in regards the nature of Angels, and also about the nature of the body [of the child of God] in the resurrection [Special or of the First Great/Just/Life], which is likened unto the nature of Angels [Matthew 22:30; Mark 12:25; Luke 20:35,36 KJB] and will be after the manner of Christ's own resurrected body [Romans 6:5; Ephesians 5:30 KJB], minus the wounds, as He will eternally have [*See the end of this section for those references, Eternal Price].

    In regards the nature of Angels, etc., many wrongly equate the scriptural word “invisible” [Colossians 1:16 KJB], with a non-scriptural word, “incorporeal” [of non-substance], or possibly even “ethereal”. The two are not synonymous.

    Good Angels are called “ministering spirits” [Psalms 104:4; Hebrews 1:7,14 KJB], while fallen angels are called “evil spirits” [Luke 7:21, 8:2; Acts 19:12,13 KJB], and “unclean spirits” [Matthew 10:1; Mark 1:27, 3:11, 5:13, 6:7; Luke 4:36, 6:18; Acts 5:16, 8:7; Revelation 16:13 KJB], of whom it is said that we [as Christians] “... wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

    Of course, each text is true and correct in what they say/teach, [though generally misunderstood by many], as any angel [good or evil] has not “flesh and blood” as we of man-kind have, that is “bodies terrestrial” [1 Corinthians 15:40 KJB] and “of the earth, earthy” [1 Corinthians 15:57 KJB], but rather they have “celestial bodies” [1 Corinthians 15:40 KJB], being an “heavenly” [1 Corinthians 15:48,49; Hebrews 11:16 KJB], for God has given to each kind [angel and man], “a body as it hath pleased him” [1 Corinthians 15:38 KJB], for “[a]ll flesh is not the same flesh” [1 Corinthians 15:39 KJB], and there are “celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial” [1 Corinthians 15:40 KJB].

    1 Corinthians 15:38 KJB - But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

    1 Corinthians 15:39 KJB - All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

    1 Corinthians 15:40 KJB - There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
    Some will attempt to say that these passages are not speaking about angels, but only about the bodies of the resurrection of the righteous. However, the two are equated:

    Matthew 22:30 KJB - For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

    Mark 12:25 KJB - For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

    Luke 20:35 KJB - But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

    Luke 20:36 KJB - Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

    Romans 6:5 KJB - For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

    1 Corinthians 15:47 KJB - The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

    1 Corinthians 15:48 KJB - As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

    1 Corinthians 15:49 KJB - And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

    Ephesians 5:30 KJB - For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

    Philippians 3:21 KJB - Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

    Job 19:25 KJB - For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

    Job 19:26 KJB - And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

    Job 19:27 KJB - Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.​

    Paul says that we, Christians, are not looking to be “unclothed” [2 Corinthians 5:4 KJB], but rather, “to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven” [2 Corinthians 5:2 KJB], “so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked” [2 Corinthians 5:3 KJB; nakedness here is the sleep of death, the doing and knowing nothing of the grave; Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10, etc. KJB], being “clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life” [2 Corinthians 5:4 KJB], that “mortal” shall put on, and be swallowed up of, “immortality” [1 Corinthians 15:53,54 KJB].
     
  3. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Jesus' own body in His resurrection is a real glorified body, in which He participated in eating, speaking, touching, etc., and is the very same body that he ascended up into Heaven with, not faded into the aether nor dematerialized into vaporous nothing.

    The “stone” [Matthew 28:2; Mark 16:3,4; Luke 24:2; John 20:1 KJB] upon the tomb had to be rolled back by Gabriel, to let Jesus free. Jesus did not phase through it, He got up and walked out of the opening [Matthew 28:1-7; Mark 16:1-8; Luke 24;1-9; John 20:1-13 KJB]. Additionally, in Jesus' death there was an earthquake [Matthew 27:51 KJB] which “opened” [Matthew 27:52 KJB] many of the tombs of the martyred saints around Jerusalem, so that those martyred saints therein, could come “out” [Matthew 27:53 KJB] in their resurrection when Jesus was resurrected [1 Corinthians 15:20,23 KJB]. They did not phase through them either.

    The disciples were able to hold onto Jesus' glorified flesh, when they held Him by the feet [Matthew 28:9; John 20:17 KJB], and He drew near to two on the road to Emmaus, and walked and talked with them [Mark 16:12; Luke 24:15 KJB], and entered their house, sat down and broke bread with them [Luke 24:30,35 KJB]. Jesus verily “vanished out of their sight” [Luke 24:32 KJB], but please notice, it does not say he *poofed* into nothing. To “vanish out of … sight” is simply to be “invisible”, not incorporeal, as a mythological and paganistic 'shade'. They got up and left to go back to Jerusalem, and Jesus was with them the whole time, unseen. Jesus did not phase through a wall, nor a locked door, that day [John 20:19 KJB], nor a week later [John 20:26 KJB]. He simply entered with them [Luke 24:32-36 KJB], and was “invisible” until He revealed Himself, even as He had been with the two earlier on the road to Emmaus and they did not recognize Him, until He showed Himself to them at their house.

    Jesus asks them to “handle” [Luke 24:38; Ephesians 5:30 KJB] Him, having “flesh and bones”, “hands and feet” [Luke 24:39,40 KJB], and He eats with the disciples [Luke 24:41-43 KJB]. Jesus even asks Thomas to put his finger and hand into the very wounds that Jesus still had [John 20:27 KJB]. He also shewed Himself at the sea of Tiberias [John 21:1-25 KJB], and also

    Jesus later ascends [Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51; John 20:17; Acts 1:2-11; Ephesians 4:8-10; Revelation 12:5; Psalms 24:1-10 KJB] into Heaven with the “same” [Acts 1:11 KJB] glorified body, even the “form” [Daniel 3:25; Philippians 2:6, etc & Exodus 33:23 KJB] thereof. This same body, and all its descriptive parts, is seen in Heaven in Revelation 1:13-16, 2:1,18 KJB, having the glory He had before coming in humanity [John 17:5 KJB]. He went to “prepare a place” [John 14:2,3 KJB], a very real place, for those who believe unto the end.

    That Heavenly city, having precious foundations, whose builder and make is God [Hebrews 11:10 KJB], is real and will come down from Heaven above, and is filled with all manner of beauty and creation, “cherubim and seraphim, “elders”, “creatures”, stones, gold, pearls, eternal gates. We will have “crowns”, “palms”, “harps” and “white raiment”, being able to drink from the “river of water of life”, and to eat from “the tree of life” in the middle of the garden of the Heavenly Eden. There is the true Temple and true Ark of God, and His Ten Commandments. The Father Himself [and Son] rules from a very real “throne”, and a description of Him may be seen in Daniel 7:9; Matthew 10:18; Revelation 4, etc KJB.
     
    #23 One Baptism, Feb 22, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2018
  4. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Satan has attempted to etherealize and vaporize the reward of God and Heaven into non-things, gaseous clouds of non-entity, incorporeal vanity, and he has highly succeeded in this, but only because God's people reject knowledge sent from God [Hosea 4:6 KJB].

    Heaven Is It For Real?, page 8 by Joe Crews -

    “It is shocking how many weak and twisted concepts of heaven people have accepted. Most folks think of it as some far off ethereal place—and that is about all the average man knows about heaven. He believes it is “up there” somewhere. Yes, it is “up there,” and we can agree with him that far ...”​

    The Great Controversy 1888, page 435 -

    “... Many and earnest were the efforts made to overthrow their faith. None could fail to see that if the earthly sanctuary was a figure or pattern of the heavenly, the law deposited in the ark on earth was an exact transcript of the law in the ark in Heaven; and that an acceptance of the truth concerning the heavenly sanctuary involved an acknowledgment of the claims of God’s law, and the obligation of the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. Here was the secret of the bitter and determined opposition to the harmonious exposition of the Scriptures that revealed the ministration of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary. Men sought to close the door which God had opened, and to open the door which he had closed. But “He that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth,” had declared, “Behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it.” [Revelation 3:7, 8.] Christ had opened the door, or ministration, of the most holy place, light was shining from that open door of the sanctuary in Heaven, and the fourth commandment was shown to be included in the law which is there enshrined; what God had established, no man could overthrow. ...”​

    The Angels of Heaven [from Genesis to Revelation, while some things are symbolic, context determines] are always depicted as have the:

    similitude of the sons of men” [Daniel 10:16 KJB],

    the likeness of a man” [Daniel 10:16 KJB],

    like the appearance of a man” [Daniel 10:18 KJB],

    looking like “men” [Genesis 18:2 KJB],

    having that like the “hands of a man” [Ezekiel 1:8, 10:21 KJB],

    a “hand” [Ezekiel 2:9; Daniel 10:10 KJB],

    fingers of a man's hand” [Daniel 5:5 KJB],

    bear thee up in [their] hands” [Psalms 91:12 KJB] or “hands they shall bear thee up” [Matthew 4:6 KJB],

    touched” [Daniel 8:18, 9:21 KJB],

    the face of a man” [Ezekiel 1:10, 10:14, 41:19 KJB],

    fell … on their faces” [Revelation 7:11 KJB],

    countenance was like lightning” [Matthew 28:3 KJB],

    their appearance [was] like burning coals of fire, [and] like the appearance of lamps” [Ezekiel 1:13 KJB],

    young man” [Mark 16:5 KJB],

    and man-kind are “made ... a little lower than the angels” [Psalms 8:5 KJB],

    bodies” [Ezekiel 1:11,23; 1 Corinthians 15:40 KJB],

    feet” [and legs] [Genesis 18:4, 19:2; Exodus 24:10; 2 Samuel 22:10; Psalms 18:9; Isaiah 6:2; Lamentations 3:34; Ezekiel 1:7; Daniel 10:6; Habakkuk 3:5; Zechariah 14:4; Revelation 1:5, 2:18, 10:1, 19:10, 22:8 KJB],

    sole of their feet” [Ezekiel 1:7 KJB],

    eyes” [Deuteronomy 11:12, 13:18; 2 Chronicles 16:9; Job 34:21; Psalms 11:4; Ezekiel 1:18, 10:12; Daniel 10:6; Hebrews 4:13; Revelation 1:14, 2:18, 4:6,8, 5:6, 19:12 KJB],

    do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven” [Matthew 18:10 KJB],

    breasts” [ie, upper chest/torso] [Revelation 15:6 KJB],

    voices” [Revelation 4:5, 8:5, 10:3-4, 11:15,19, 16:18 KJB],

    the voice of many angels round about the throne” [Revelation 5:11 KJB],

    sang together” [Job 38:7 KJB],

    shouted for joy” [Job 38:7 KJB],

    that “talked” [Zechariah 5:5 KJB],

    able to “Hail” [Luke 1:28 KJB],

    and have “wings” [Exodus 25:20, 37:9; 2 Samuel 22:11; 1 Kings 6:27, 8:6-7; 1 Chronicles 28:18; 2 Chronicles 3:11,13, 5:7-8; Psalms 18:10, 104:3; Isaiah 6:2; Ezekiel 1:6,8-9,11,23-25, 3:13, 10:8,12,16,19,21, 11:22; Revelation 4:8 KJB],

    fly swiftly” [Daniel 9:21 KJB],

    and being able to carry a “sword” [Genesis 3:24; Numbers 22:31; Joshua 5:13; 1 Chronicles 21:16 KJB],

    or having “a slaughter weapon in his hand” [Ezekiel 9:2 KJB],

    able to “smote” [2 Kings 19:35 KJB],

    and “cut off” [2 Chronicles 32:21 KJB],

    and “fought” [Revelation 12:7 KJB],

    make “war” [Revelation 12:7 KJB, see also 2 Kings 6:16-17 KJB],

    encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them” [Psalms 34:7 KJB],

    an hedge” [Job 1:10 KJB],

    they are strong, “that excel in strength” [Psalms 103:20 KJB],

    strengthening” [Luke 22:43 KJB],

    able to do, “that do his commandments” [Psalms 103:20 KJB],

    listening, “hearkening unto the voice of his word” [Psalms 103:20 KJB],

    or carrying a “writer's ink horn by his side” [Ezekiel 9:2 KJB],

    have “food” [Psalms 78:25 KJB],

    can be “entertained” [Hebrews 13:2 KJB],

    and “harps” [Revelation 5:8 KJB],

    live coal” [Isaiah 6:6 KJB],

    tongs” [Isaiah 6:6 KJB],

    vials” [Revelation 5:8, 15:7, 16:1, 17:1, 21:9 KJB],

    golden censer” [Revelation 8:3 KJB],

    golden reed” [Revelation 21:5 KJB],

    wearing “golden girdles” [Revelation 15:6 KJB],

    having “incense” [Revelation 8:3 KJB],

    trumpet/s [Exodus 19:13,16,19, 20:18; Psalms 47:5, 150:3; Zechariah 9:14; Matthew 24:31; 1 Corinthians 15:52; Hebrews 12:19; Revelation 8:2,6,13, 9:14 KJB [consider also in the context of Jesus' voice; 1 Thessalonians 4:16; Revelation 1:10, 4:1 KJB]],

    sickle” [Revelation 14:14-19 KJB],

    and even a “book” [scroll] [Exodus 32:32-33; Psalms 69:28, 139:16; Ezekiel 2:9; Daniel 12:1; Malachi 3:16; Philippians 4:3; Revelation 3:5, 5:1-5, 7-9, 10:2,8-10, 13:8, 17:8, 20:12,15, 21:27 KJB],

    and are able to “speak” [“said”] [Ezekiel 2:1; Acts 5:19-20 KJB] [devils/angels throughout, examples; Genesis 18 and 19; Matthew 4:1-11, 8:29; Mark 3:11; Luke 4:1-13, etc. KJB],

    devils and Satan “speaketh a lie” [John 8:44 KJB],

    tongues … of angels” [1 Corinthians 13:31 KJB],

    Paul having heard “unspeakable words” [2 Corinthians 12:4 KJB],

    sat” [Judges 6:11; Matthew 28:2 KJB],

    and are found “sitting” [John 20:12 KJB],

    being able to “stand” [1 Chronicles 21:16; Luke 1:19; Revelation 10:5 KJB],

    and “stood” [Ezekiel 9:2; Acts 1:10 KJB],

    and “all the angels stood round about the throne” [Revelation 7:11 KJB],

    seen “standing” [Numbers 22:31 KJB],

    able to “touched” [1 Kings 19:5,7 KJB],

    held “the staff that [was] in his hand” [Judges 6:21 KJB],

    ministers” [Psalms 103:21 KJB],

    minister[ed]” [Matthew 4:11; Hebrews 1:14, 8:2 KJB],

    found “ministering” [Psalms 104:4; Hebrews 1:7 KJB],

    clothed with linen” [Ezekiel 9:2,3,11, 10:2,6,7; Daniel 10:5 KJB],

    stood by them in white apparel” [Acts 1:10 KJB],

    clothed in a long white garment” [Mark 16:5 KJB],

    clothed in white raiment” [Revelation 4:4 KJB],

    in white sitting” [John 20:12 KJB],

    the “four and twenty elders” having “on their heads crowns of gold” [Revelation 4:4 KJB],

    or even “clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles” [Revelation 15:6 KJB],

    and they “worship” [Exodus 34:14; Matthew 4:10; Luke 4:8; John 4:24; Hebrews 1:6; Revelation 4:10, 19:10 KJB],

    being able to both bow, kneel and fall before the LORD, “fell before the Throne on their faces, and worhsipped God” [Revelation 7:11 KJB],

    present themselves before the Lord” [Job 1:6, 2:1 KJB],

    being able to “Bless the LORD” [Psalms 103:20-22 KJB],

    praise” [Psalms 148:2 KJB],

    and even pray and cry aloud with their mouths, “HOLY, HOLY, HOLY” [Isaiah 6:3; Revelation 4:8 KJB].​

    God created the Angels as glorious beings, and they do have bodies, as Paul would say, “Celestial bodies”, for “God giveth it a body as it hath pleased Him”. Just as Jesus now eternally has a “Glorious Body” [Philippians 3:21 KJB].
     
  5. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Lucifer/[now satan] was the very “anointed cherub that coverth” [Ezekiel 28:14 KJB] and stood directly by the very Throne of God in Heaven [just as the imitation ones, being patterned after the heavenly ones on either side of the Mercy Seat of the Ark of the Covenant on earth] and God had dressed him [Lucifer] in precious stones and metals, “every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created” [Ezekiel 28:13 KJB] and Lucifer had once “walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire” in the “Eden the garden of God”, upon “the holy mountain of God”, being “Mount Zion” of Heaven, which “cannot be removed, [but] abideth forever”.

    Satan will be brought to “ashes” [Ezekiel 28:18; Malachi 4:3 KJB, see also the sanctuary; Psalms 73:17, 77:13 KJB] and “All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never [shalt] thou [be] any more.” [Ezekiel 28:19] and “The merchants among the people shall hiss at thee; thou shalt be a terror, and never [shalt be] any more.” [Ezekiel 27:36 KJB]

    The angels, like the Cherubim and Seraphim, the shining ones, are “ministering spirits” [Hebrews 1:14 KJB], called a “flaming fire” [Psalms 104:4 KJB], and “ministers a flame of fire” [Hebrews 1:7 KJB], and their “countenances” are “like lightning”, as “burning coals of fire”, and “burning lamps”, and wearing “white raiment” which are very “bright”. Even Satan can transform himself into an “angel of light” [2 Corinthians 11:14 KJB]. Does this mean that angels have no substance, no body and are merely wispy aether? Not at all. The bodies they have, are “celestial” [1 Corinthians 15:40 KJB], and those which are good, are led by the Spirit, and are thus spiritual bodies [1 Corinthians 15:44 KJB], being in subjection to God, and are not subject to death [yet the wicked angels will be soon]. Even we, as Christians, are to be “ministering spirits” also:

    Hebrews 12:23 KJB - To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,​
     
  6. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    We know that JEHOVAH and angels, and the "sons of God" [Job 1:6, 2:1; the unfallen beings of the unfallen worlds [see also 24 elders/ancients in Isaiah and Revelation, etc], even as the Adam of this world was a "son of God" [Luke 3:38 KJB], having "dominion" in stewardship, as they do] were in existence in the 3rd Heaven, before our 2 Heavens were created, being our first heaven, the atmosphere where the birds fly: Genesis 1:8,20; and the second Heaven is the very place where our Sun, moon and local stars are: Genesis 1:14-19.

    God, made room for us:

    God, when making the 'first' and 'second' heavens, stretched out the heaven that already existed before us, and made room, even a place, for us:

    Psalms 104:2 KJB - Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:

    Isaiah 40:22 KJB - It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

    Isaiah 45:12 KJB - I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

    Jeremiah 10:12 KJB - He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.​

    Thus, Heaven [3rd] is not "outside" in the sense of "another dimension", but are simply beyond [further out than] our world's heavens.

    Jesus, when He ascended, did not phase into the aether, and scatter himself into/through the Cosmos, but rather the text, plainly teaches, that Jesus went "up", even "ascended", not "out" of, nor "through", the universe like some perfume, or essence, and He continued to ascend until He actually reaches the physical Gates of Heaven in that Heavenly City on that sinless world where He was before:

    Acts 1:9 KJB - And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

    Acts 1:10 KJB - And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

    Acts 1:11 KJB - Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

    Acts 1:22 KJB - Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

    Ephesians 4:8 KJB - Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

    Revelation 12:5 KJB - And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

    Psalms 24:1 KJB - A Psalm of David. The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.

    Psalms 24:2 KJB - For he hath founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the floods.

    Psalms 24:3 KJB - Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?

    Psalms 24:4 KJB - He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.

    Psalms 24:5 KJB - He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.

    Psalms 24:6 KJB - This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah.

    Psalms 24:7 KJB - Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.

    Psalms 24:8 KJB - Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.

    Psalms 24:9 KJB - Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.

    Psalms 24:10 KJB - Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

    etc.
    Thus, since the original Heaven was stretched to make room, where are we [this world, Sun, Moon and system of stars] in relationship to that original [3rd Heaven]? is then the 3rd Heaven "outside", as in a "another dimension" [of which there is no scripture [KJB] or evidence for], or is it simply "outside", as meaning in "further" beyond in distance than our present two Heavens.

    Jesus also first descended:

    Ephesians 4:9 KJB - (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

    Ephesians 4:10 KJB - He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)​

    And had done so, many times in the past [before taking upon himself the fallen sinful flesh of mankind], see Genesis 3, 11, 17-19; Exodus 3, etc, etc.
     
    #26 One Baptism, Feb 22, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2018
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    He could - but that is part of the universe he created... you know... space, time, physical properties in the universe and all.

    Its just that an infinite God with infinite wisdom and power is not limited to only-things-in-his-immediate area
     
  8. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    You have a misunderstanding of who Israel is, and who His children are:

    Romans 9:6 KJB - Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

    Romans 9:8 KJB - That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.​

    See Matthew 2:13-15 with Hosea 11:1 KJB. Who is Israel according to Matthew, under guidance of the Holy Spirit, citing the prophet?

    See Hebrews 2:9-13 [vs 13 specifically] with Isaiah 8:8-20 [vs 18 specifically] KJB. Who are Israels' children according to Paul, under guidance of the Holy Spirit citing the prophet? Please notice, that His "children" are called "my disciples". Who, in the New Testament period of His "disciples", and does He not call them His "children":

    John 13:33 KJB - Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.​
     
  9. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    If He could, the physical must have a different purpose
     
  10. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Immateriality

    "... THIS is but another name for nonentity. It is the negative of all things and beings - of all existence. There is not one particle of proof to be advanced to establish its existence. It has no way to manifest itself to any intelligence in heaven or on earth. Neither God, angels, nor men could possibly conceive of such a substance, being, or thing. It possesses no property or power by which to make itself manifest to any intelligent being in the universe. Reason and analogy never scan it, or even conceive of it. Revelation never reveals it, nor do any of our senses witness its existence. It cannot be seen, felt, heard, tasted, or smelled, even by the strongest organs, or the most acute sensibilities. It is neither liquid nor solid, soft nor hard - it can neither extend nor contract. In short, it can exert no influence whatever - it can neither act nor be acted upon. And even if it does exist, it can be of no possible use. It possesses no one, desirable property, faculty, or use, yet, strange to say, immateriality is the modern Christian’s God, his anticipated heaven, his immortal self - his all!

    O sectarianism! O atheism!! O annihilation!!!


    who can perceive the nice shades of difference between the one and the other? They seem alike, all but in name. The atheist has no God. The sectarian has a God without body or parts. Who can define the difference? For our part we do not perceive a difference of a single hair; they both claim to be the negative of all things which exist - and both are equally powerless and unknown.

    The atheist has no after life, or conscious existence beyond the grave. The sectarian has one, but it is immaterial, like his God; and without body or parts. Here again both are negative, and both arrive at the same point. Their faith and hope amount to the same; only it is expressed by different terms.

    Again, the atheist has no heaven in eternity. The sectarian has one, but it is immaterial in all its properties, and is therefore the negative of all riches and substances. Here again they are equal, and arrive at the same point.

    As we do not envy them the possession of all they claim
    , we will now leave them in the quiet and undisturbed enjoyment of the same, and proceed to examine the portion still left for the despised materialist to enjoy.

    What is God? He is material, organized intelligence, possessing both body and parts. Man is in his image.

    What is Jesus Christ? He is the Son of God, and is like his Father, being “the brightness of his Father’s glory, and the express image of his person.” He is a material intelligence, with body, parts, and passions; possessing immortal flesh and immortal bones.

    What are men? They are the offspring of Adam. They are capable of receiving intelligence and exaltation to such a degree as to be raised from the dead with a body like that of Jesus Christ, and to possess immortal flesh and bones. Thus perfected, they will possess the material universe, that is, the earth, as their “everlasting inheritance.” With these hopes and prospects before us, we say to the Christian world who hold to immateriality, that they are welcome to their God - their life - their heaven, and their all. They claim nothing but that which we throw away; and we claim nothing but that which they throw away. Therefore, there is no ground for quarrel or contention between us.

    We choose all substance - what remains
    The mystical sectarian gains;
    All that each claims, each shall possess,
    Nor grudge each other’s happiness.
    An immaterial God they choose,
    For such a God we have no use;
    An immaterial heaven and hell,
    In such a heaven we cannot dwell.
    We claim the earth, the air, and sky,
    And all the starry worlds on high;
    Gold, silver, ore, and precious stones,
    And bodies made of flesh and bones.
    Such is our hope, our heaven, our all,
    When once redeemed from Adam’s fall;
    All things are ours, and we shall be,
    The Lord’s to all eternity.
    ..." - Personality of God, Page 6 -- Ellen G. White Writings
     
  11. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Do you have an outline or perhaps Cliff notes? I do not need the verses just the reference and your point,
    The repetition detracts from your posts. Just summarize. I am familiar with commentaries most are wrong.

    You repeat the verses I gave and try to use a different meaning. The verses only confirm my position if applied correctly. You include false statements that clearway not in the verses you copy. That is the problem, man's traditions make the Word non effect.

    as an example, you make assumptions on Jesus body at ascension. Jesus had to show us His resurrected body to prove He was alive. Yet we know flesh and blood cannot see the kingdom. so, redefine flesh? Well you can't, it is used too many times correctly as body , sarx An incorporeal spiritual body is a Heavenly body. The elders, cherubim and seraphim are not flesh and blood, not physical but scriptural incorporeal beings.

    God saved us a a spiritual being as being a fleshly being that we can share in His death. Humans are spiritual and physical beings, the only one. Spiritual beings have no brotherhood, no kinship. Each of us are individual unique creations of God and cannot be saved by one dearth, but Humans can
     
  12. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    This has not been discussed. This is not a mater / anti mater situation,



    We are more than the physical , We are spiritual beings already ,as well. We do not have to strive for "immateriality" , We are spiritual beings within corporeal bodies,

    We are the bad guys in the narrative, What does she say about being a sinner?
     
  13. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Thank you for showing me, once again, as others, that people do not actually read, nor want to read, nor even actually want their concerns addressed in any manner of studied detail, and so it even shows me how such also much approach the scripture itself. It is a mere few pages. You have the only answer that I will give on what has already been posted, and I do not intend to reduce it to ashes.
     
  14. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    What a cruel and lonely existence, pitiable, great of sorrow, pregnant of woeful tears.

    Scripture [KJB] as cited, says otherwise:


    Luke 15:4 KJB - What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

    Luke 15:5 KJB - And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

    Luke 15:6 KJB - And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

    Luke 15:7 KJB - I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

    Matthew 18:13 KJB - And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.​

    God the Father, and Son:

    Zechariah 13:7 KJB - Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.​

    Angels and men:

    Revelation 19:10 KJB - And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

    Hebrews 1:9 KJB - Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    Job 1:6 KJB - Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

    Job 2:1 KJB - Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

    Job 38:7 KJB - When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

    Psalms 82:6 KJB - I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
    Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven:

    Matthew 6:10 KJB - Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

    Psalms 103:20 KJB - Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.

    Leviticus 19:17 KJB - Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

    Matthew 12:50 KJB - For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

    Mark 3:35 KJB - For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

    Exodus 20:12 KJB - Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

    Galatians 4:26 KJB - But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
    You sound like these:

    Genesis 4:9 KJB - And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?

    Luke 10:29 KJB - But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
    Angels, indeed are our "neighbours". They have come, in love, assisting Jesus Christ.

    Matthew 18:15 KJB - Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
    Did not Jesus follow His own rule, in coming to us in person?
     
  15. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Let me know where I quoted a "commentar[y]'. All that was presented is personal research, study and written response, except for the single quotation of brother White, which is his personal research, study and written response.

    I am also awaiting answers to who Israel is, according to the texts provided you, but were not responded to, as in being answered. Instead, a response was given not dealing at all with that reply, or questions therein to you.
     
  16. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Promises were made to traditional Israel which we as Believers may share. The restoration of Jerusalem, Jesus reigning from there. etc.

    You presented by Joe Crews, and Ellen G White , two posts.
    Neither impresses me. Most us not pertinent. Just ramblings and phrases.
     
  17. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    The "seed" "in" whom all nations would be blessed, inheriting the promises, is Christ Jesus [Genesis 3:15; Galatians 3:16; Revelation 12:4,17 KJB. There are no promises outside of Christ Jesus:



    2 Corinthians 1:20 KJB - For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

    Romans 9:7 KJB - Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

    Hebrews 11:18 KJB - Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

    Romans 9:6 KJB - Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

    Romans 9:7 KJB - Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

    Romans 9:8 KJB - That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.​

    You might want to look up Jesuit Futurism, Francisco Ribera, S.J., Cardinal Roberto Bellermine, S.J., Manuel de Lacunza, S.J., etc.

    The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism

    Earthly Jerusalem and its earthly temple is to be "desolate", forever, no longer the house of God, nor the city of God, and never to bear fruit again, dried up from the roots, and to be plucked up an burned:

    Matthew 23:38 KJB - Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

    Luke 13:35 KJB - Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

    Matthew 21:19 KJB - And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

    Mark 11:14 KJB - And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.

    Mark 11:20 KJB - And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.

    Matthew 15:13 KJB - But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

    John 15:6 KJB - If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

    Malachi 4:1 KJB - For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

    Luke 3:9 KJB - And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

    Matthew 3:10 KJB - And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

    Matthew 7:19 KJB - Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

    Matthew 27:25 KJB - Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.​

    Here we have no continuing city:

    Hebrews 13:14 KJB - For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
    It ain't Rome [the so-called eternal city], it ain't earthly Jerusalem, and it sure ain't Mecca, etc.

    For we look for the one to come down, even as Abraham, the father of the faithful did:

    Hebrews 11:8 KJB - By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

    Hebrews 11:9 KJB - By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

    Hebrews 11:10 KJB - For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

    Hebrews 11:14 KJB - For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

    Hebrews 11:15 KJB - And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

    Hebrews 11:16 KJB - But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.​

    The New Jerusalem, is like unto a giant Ark, unto which all of the redeemed shall enter, a giant "ship", even a "mother" that comes down from Heaven [I hope you caught the reference], with all manner of precious colors [remember satan likes to copy and to twist things]:

    Galatians 4:26 KJB - But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
    The Ashkenazi in palestine, etc have no Temple, and never will, and earthly Jerusalem will be a desolate, devasated, burnt out, salted, blasted, bullet ridden war zone unto the end.

    The third Temple of Ezekiel, is the Church, as saith Jesus, Peter, Paul, John, etc.
     
  18. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    The "body" of men and angels, deals with "flesh", since all flesh is not the same flesh, just as horse flesh is not the same as cow flesh, is not the same as dog flesh, is not the same as cat flesh, is not the same as fish flesh, is not the same as the flesh of bird, or the flesh of man or the flesh [cestial bodies] of Angels:

    1 Corinthians 15:38 KJB - But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

    1 Corinthians 15:39 KJB - All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

    1 Corinthians 15:40 LKJB - There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.​

    Example, the two angels [differing flesh than men/mankind] with Lot:

    Jude 1:7 KJB - Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.​

    Consider Gabriel [and before asking me how I know, read the contexts]:

    Daniel 9:21 KJB - Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

    Daniel 10:10 KJB - And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands.

    Mark 16:5 KJB - And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.​
     
  19. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    The soul of man is the eternal spiritual being in a temporal flesh and blood vessel.
     
  20. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    No scripture?

    Allow me to share then, here is what a "soul", a living creature/being, is:

    Genesis 2:7 KJB - And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.​

    [1] + [2] = [3].

    [dust of the ground] + [breath of life [from God, it is His breath, His Life-giving, animating spirit]] = "living soul [man, Adam]"

    In death, it reverses:

    Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJB - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
    [3] - [2] - [1] = ?

    "living soul [man, Adam]" - [breath of life [from God, it is His breath, His Life-giving, animating spirit]] - [dust of the ground]

    Once the breath of the Life of God is removed from the body [it is God's own life giving spirit], and the body returns to dust, where is the "living soul [the man, Adam]"?

    Ecclesiastes 12:5 KJB - Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:

    Job 17:13 KJB - If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.

    Job 17:16 KJB - They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust.

    Job 14:10 KJB - But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?

    Job 14:11 KJB - As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:

    Job 14:12 KJB - So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

    Job 14:13 KJB - O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

    Job 14:14 KJB - If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

    Job 14:15 KJB - Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
    Paul utilized Job in the New Testament, see 1 Corinthians 15:50-58 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 KJB.

    But if you do not understand the beginning, how then can you understand its end?
     
    #40 One Baptism, Feb 22, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2018
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