1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Why did God create the Universe - revisited

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Feb 17, 2018.

  1. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2018
    Messages:
    1,672
    Likes Received:
    36
    Faith:
    Baptist
    your verses have nothing to do with the point you are trying to make.

    I think it is widespread ignorance, look at this last post, I said the soul is eternal, the body is physical. You responded

    Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJB - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it..

    proving the point I made , Que ?????


     
  2. supersoldier71

    supersoldier71 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2018
    Messages:
    120
    Likes Received:
    25
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If you are trying to argue that the soul pre-exists before our physical conception and birth, that's not what that verse says...or means. I feel that a lot of your argument is based on this presupposition and it is, to be kind, heterodoxical.

    Are you sure you're not a Mormon?

    Because many, if not all, the positions from which you are arguing very closely align with their beliefs.

    What's more frustrating is that your hermeneutical processes lack structure and tend to shape proof texts to meet your agendas, the very thing you have repeatedly stated that "man" has done.

    Ultimately your assertions fall apart not just Scripturally, which is, in my view, the end of the discussion, but logically as well.

    Saying that the dark preceded the light, either literally or metaphysically is a true statement certainly, but it gives the dark more power that it deserves. Physically, darkness is the absence of light, there are no tachyons streaking about and bouncing off objects to give us what our eyes perceive as light. Spiritually and in every instance darkness is used to represent separation from God, the darkness represents just that, distance from God. The "Outer Darkness" (Matthew 8:12, 22:13, and 25:30) is the place within Creation that is literally the farthest, most isolated one can be from God.

    You've been blessed with some very kind, thoughtful, Spirit-led and Scripturally-based replies, and have, essentially, spit on all of them in favor of your own flawed exegesis, which has led, at times to you wandering very close to blaspheming God and His works, and denying the literal, plain-speaking truth of the Creation account. In my church, when I taught 3-5 graders, we began with: "In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the earth...." because if you accept Genesis 1-3 as actual, literal, plain human history, the rest of the Bible falls neatly into place. Mostly: Zechariah can be a bit vexing at times.

    You do not accept the prima facie truth of the Creation Narrative.

    And the hermeneutical, exegetical, logical and linguistic gymnastics that you resort to the close the loops in your narrative are truly astounding.

    But it didn't and doesn't have to be that way. Your Gnosticism flies in the face of what God has revealed about Himself, that He is the God of truth and light, not of darkness and obfuscation. He is sovereign over the darkness as He is ALL things, but He is not the God of those who linger in darkness or obscure the truth, nor does He do these things Himself.

    Goodbye and God bless.
     
  3. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2018
    Messages:
    1,672
    Likes Received:
    36
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The creation narrative has been misinterpreted toward a humanistic bias, glorifying, or explaining as the human existence is the pinnacle of God's creation. It is not. Humanity is a life preserver thrown to sinking spiritual sinners, We(before salvation) are on death row,


    Mormans have extended that belief to include that being human is part of Heaven's plan for all of Heaven. Which is blasphemy.

    You taught as you were taught. Which is wrong, as shown by the pre-creation of beings. You also are wrong by the language. Gen 1 actually says "In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth --" The Hebrews do not talk like YODA.

    The first creation told is of Light, v3. Darkness was here already. Satan and the fallen are here , originally "chained in darkness" reserved for judgement" etc

    So there are two types of beings here in the physical universe , sinful spiritual beings, (includes evil spirit) and sinful spiritual beings with human bodies, some of which have accepted pardons and are called redeemed The universe(physical reality) is a Prison,
     
  4. supersoldier71

    supersoldier71 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2018
    Messages:
    120
    Likes Received:
    25
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Darkness didn't "pre-exist". It's literally the absence of light. It has no intrinsic substance. Your entire exegesis falls apart based on that alone.

    Humanity--I'm guessing you mean human existence--is a "life preserver"?

    THAT. IS. THE. MOST. RIDICULOUS. THING. I. HAVE. EVER. HEARD.

    Goodbye and God bless.

    And this time, I mean it.
     
  5. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2018
    Messages:
    1,672
    Likes Received:
    36
    Faith:
    Baptist
    no, It makes sense.

    Look at darkness, It was here before light.
    Isa 45:7
    I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

    Satan and fallen angels are here in darkness
    Jde 1:6
    And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

    2Pe 2:4
    For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell,(Tartaroo) and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

    Jesus's ministry to ones in darkness

    Isa 42:7
    To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
    Mat 4:16
    The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
    Jhn 12:46
    I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

    Did it change the spelling on me? yes life preserver The verse you ignored
    Heb 2:14
    Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

    Rom 5:8
    But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    Rom 5:9
    Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

    I have to answer if you are gone
     
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    34,045
    Likes Received:
    839
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Godand Heavon exists outside of His creation, or else He is Pantheistic!
     
  7. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2015
    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    20
    That is not the definition of "pantheism", nor "panentheism" [all things are in God, thus all is God or part of God

    Pantheism teaches that God is in all things, all reality [thus teaches that all things/all reality are God, or divine, divinity], which is untrue. Nature/Creation is not God, and never will be God. God is also not in the sinner [even see Revelation 3, Christ Jesus outside knocking upon the door of Laodicea]. Scripture also clearly teaches that "Our Father, which art in Heaven ..." [Matthew 6:9 KJB, etc] That Heaven is the 3rd Heaven [2 Corinthians 12:2 KJB], a very tangible place, further than the distance of the 1st and 2nd Heavens [of Genesis 1 KJB].
     
  8. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2015
    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    20
    No, it proves that it is God's breath/spirit/animating vitality that is taken back to Himself. he gave life, and He can take it back, as it is written, "... the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD." [Job 1 :21 KJB]

    Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJB - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.​

    Notice the parallels of Ecclesiates 12:7 KJB:

    Psalms 104:29 KJB - Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.​

    Psalms 146:4 KJB - His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

    Ecclesiastes 9:6 KJB - "Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished ..."

    Job 14:21 KJB - His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them.

    Job 34:14 KJB - If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;

    Job 34:15 KJB - All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

    Ecclesiastes 3:19 KJB - For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

    Acts 17:25 KJB - Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
    Man returns to dust. A "living soul" [such as Adam was], or man, is simply dust, animated by the living breath/spirit of God. It is His breath which animates. When He takes that back, we who are dust, return to dust.

    Ecclesiastes 12:7 makes no distinction between repentant, rebellious or lower forms of created life [anmials, beasts]. It simply says that when God takes His breath/spirit back, the creature returns to dust, man [repentant, rebellious] or animal, as it is written:

    Geneisis 3:19 KJB - In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.​

    Man cannot "return" to Heaven [in death], having never began there. We began as dust, and so return to dust [in death]. God's breath was with Him, until He breathed upon lifeless dust, giving it life, making it alive, and this animating breath stays with us, until God requires it back, and once taken back, this goes back to Him. Man [or animal] does not so return in such a manner.
     
  9. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2018
    Messages:
    1,672
    Likes Received:
    36
    Faith:
    Baptist
    it proves the soul exists without the body,
     
  10. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2015
    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    20
    How did you get that from my response or the texts themselves?

    Ezekiel 18:4 KJB - Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

    Ezekiel 18:20 KJB - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.​

    A "living soul", in terms of mankind is the living person, dust plus the breath of life from God. A dead person, that is a person who was once alive, but has had their breath of life of God taken back, becomes a dead soul, which is simply a corpse, a body returning to dust. A "living soul" is simply a living corporeal being/person, a brief sampling:

    Genesis 12:5 KJB - And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.​

    Genesis 46:15 KJB - These be the sons of Leah, which she bare unto Jacob in Padanaram, with his daughter Dinah: all the souls of his sons and his daughters were thirty and three.

    Genesis 46:18 KJB - These are the sons of Zilpah, whom Laban gave to Leah his daughter, and these she bare unto Jacob, even sixteen souls.

    Genesis 46:22 KJB - These are the sons of Rachel, which were born to Jacob: all the souls were fourteen.

    Genesis 46:25 KJB - These are the sons of Bilhah, which Laban gave unto Rachel his daughter, and she bare these unto Jacob: all the souls were seven.

    Genesis 46:26 KJB - All the souls that came with Jacob into Egypt, which came out of his loins, besides Jacob's sons' wives, all the souls were threescore and six;

    Genesis 46:27 KJB - And the sons of Joseph, which were born him in Egypt, were two souls: all the souls of the house of Jacob, which came into Egypt, were threescore and ten.

    Exodus 1:5 KJB - And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls: for Joseph was in Egypt already.

    Exodus 12:4 KJB - And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.

    ...

    Joshua 10:28 KJB - And that day Joshua took Makkedah, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof he utterly destroyed, them, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain: and he did to the king of Makkedah as he did unto the king of Jericho.

    Joshua 10:30 KJB - And the LORD delivered it also, and the king thereof, into the hand of Israel; and he smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain in it; but did unto the king thereof as he did unto the king of Jericho.

    Joshua 10:32 KJB - And the LORD delivered Lachish into the hand of Israel, which took it on the second day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein, according to all that he had done to Libnah.

    Joshua 10:35 KJB - And they took it on that day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein he utterly destroyed that day, according to all that he had done to Lachish.

    Joshua 10:37 KJB - And they took it, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof, and all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining, according to all that he had done to Eglon; but destroyed it utterly, and all the souls that were therein.

    Joshua 10:39 KJB - And he took it, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof; and they smote them with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining: as he had done to Hebron, so he did to Debir, and to the king thereof; as he had done also to Libnah, and to her king.

    Joshua 11:11 KJB - And they smote all the souls that were therein with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them: there was not any left to breathe: and he burnt Hazor with fire.

    Joshua23:14 KJB - And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.

    1 Samuel 25:29 KJB - Yet a man is risen to pursue thee, and to seek thy soul: but the soul of my lord shall be bound in the bundle of life with the LORD thy God; and the souls of thine enemies, them shall he sling out, as out of the middle of a sling.

    ...

    Jeremiah 2:34 KJB - Also in thy skirts is found the blood of the souls of the poor innocents: I have not found it by secret search, but upon all these.

    ...

    Lamentations 1:19 KJB - I called for my lovers, but they deceived me: my priests and mine elders gave up the ghost in the city, while they sought their meat to relieve their souls.

    ...

    Acts 2:41 KJB - Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

    Acts 7:14 KJB - Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to him, and all his kindred, threescore and fifteen souls.

    Acts 27:37 KJB - And we were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen souls.

    ...

    1 Peter 3:20 KJB - Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    ...

    Revelation 18:13 KJB - And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.​

    Notice the words associated with the word soul/s. Food, breathing, simply living persons/beings that can be destroyed, slain with the edge of the sword, can be relieve by meat/food, coming from the man and the woman, etc..
     
  11. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2018
    Messages:
    1,672
    Likes Received:
    36
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The soul in the OT nephesh, is the being which includes body and seat of emotions, normally. It is used like this. The ship sank, all souls were lost.
    It can be separate as:
    Isa 10:18
    And shall consume the glory of his forest, and of his fruitful field, both soul and body: and they shall be as when a standardbearer fainteth.


    In the NT from Greek we have three parts, body, soul, spirit. soma ,pysche and pneuma

    1Th 5:23
    And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


    The spiritual part the pnuema exists without the body . Which we all believe happens at death
     
Loading...