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Why do Arminians have such a small view of God?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by MennoSota, Jun 3, 2017.

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  1. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    What does God tell Habakkuk?

    Habakkuk 1:5-11
    [5]The lord replied, “Look around at the nations; look and be amazed! For I am doing something in your own day, something you wouldn’t believe even if someone told you about it.
    [6]I am raising up the Babylonians, a cruel and violent people. They will march across the world and conquer other lands.
    [7]They are notorious for their cruelty and do whatever they like.
    [8]Their horses are swifter than cheetahs and fiercer than wolves at dusk. Their charioteers charge from far away. Like eagles, they swoop down to devour their prey.
    [9]“On they come, all bent on violence. Their hordes advance like a desert wind, sweeping captives ahead of them like sand.
    [10]They scoff at kings and princes and scorn all their fortresses. They simply pile ramps of earth against their walls and capture them!
    [11]They sweep past like the wind and are gone. But they are deeply guilty, for their own strength is their god.”

    God ordains both the good and the bad.

    Yes, Satan was causing the pain and suffering with Job. Reynolds...who approved that Satan could do such a thing?

    Job 1:6-12
    [6]One day the members of the heavenly court came to present themselves before the lord, and the Accuser, Satan, came with them.
    [7]“Where have you come from?” the lord asked Satan.Satan answered the lord, “I have been patrolling the earth, watching everything that’s going on.”
    [8]Then the lord asked Satan, “Have you noticed my servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth. He is blameless—a man of complete integrity. He fears God and stays away from evil.”
    [9]Satan replied to the lord, “Yes, but Job has good reason to fear God.
    [10]You have always put a wall of protection around him and his home and his property. You have made him prosper in everything he does. Look how rich he is!
    [11]But reach out and take away everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face!”
    [12]“All right, you may test him,” the lord said to Satan. “Do whatever you want with everything he possesses, but don’t harm him physically.” So Satan left the lord’s presence.
     
    #201 MennoSota, Jun 8, 2017
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  2. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    I grasp very well my argument and have explained it very clearly. You just don't like the term freewill.

    Amen!

    Amen! Within the parameters and conditions which God has ordained.

    Amen!
     
    #202 steaver, Jun 8, 2017
  3. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Great! You are a Calvinist!
     
    #203 MennoSota, Jun 8, 2017
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  4. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    You want me to be a Calvinist?

    You have to explain two things...

    1) Explain Adam's sin. Was it of his own choice given him by God? Or did God make him choose sin?

    2) For all those thereafter, why does God need to blind those, who according to Calvinism, are already blind from birth? And btw, please don't embarrass Calvinism with that story that they would believe a false Christ again. Hopefully for you guy's sake folks will soon forget about that silly answer.
     
    #204 steaver, Jun 8, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2017
  5. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    God allowed. Is it safe to say we agree on that?

    Does God allow judgment? Sure. Does God himself actively judge? Sure. Gods actions are never evil or wicked.
     
    #205 Reynolds, Jun 8, 2017
  6. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Reynolds, these have both been thoroughly explained to you. You have now agreed to Calvinist beliefs on God's sovereign will and men being kept within God's will. It is you who is recycling old complaints that have been refuted.
    Either you believe human actions are held within the will of God or you believe humans are free to act outside of God's will. The latter is free will. Unencumbered and unabated. The first view is Calvinist and places all actions within the will of God. Both good and evil...as I showed you in both Job and Habakkuk.
     
    #206 MennoSota, Jun 8, 2017
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  7. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    God ordained it. God gave his approval. God declared.

    Indeed God's actions are never evil.
    But you are judging God and telling him what evil and good must be. When God says he raised up evil Babylon to do His will. His will is not evil. But Babylon sure is. When God tells Satan to try Job, His will is not evil. But Satan is.

    God does things in His Sovereign will that you and I cannot comprehend. How do we dare to call His ordained choices "evil"?

    Reynolds, your God is small.
     
    #207 MennoSota, Jun 8, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2017
  8. Mr. Davis

    Mr. Davis Active Member
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    Reynolds, you and Steaver are both Cowards!

    Read my post #181 on page 10. Neither of you had the courage to reply to it!

    You read it, didn't say anything, so you must agree with it.

    State a contrary view if you can!
     
    #208 Mr. Davis, Jun 8, 2017
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  9. JohnDeereFan

    JohnDeereFan Well-Known Member
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    Shambach was one of the biggest heretics around. Hope he repented and received Christ before he died.
     
    #209 JohnDeereFan, Jun 8, 2017
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  10. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Adam was made sinless, upright. But when he sinned, he got kicked out. Non sequitor.

    Pharaoh was evil to the core. Not once did God tell Moses to tell them to be reconciled to Him.

    Both, though I won't call Adam's will free. He freely operated in the boundaries God placed him in. But that's not free by any stretch of the imagination.
     
    #210 SovereignGrace, Jun 8, 2017
  11. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    No. You are making assumptions about what I believe. Back to the statement of Job. It was wrong. This is kind of getting into the area of "can God make a rock so big he can't lift it?". God does not do evil. Man is not the judge of Gods actions. No matter what God does, it is not evil. Even if he were theoretically capable of evil. At the point in time He does it, it would no longer be evil. Everything He does is good, perfect, just, and righteous. Why? Because He defines what is good, perfect, just, and righteous. Soooooooooo............ Job was wrong in his statement that attributed evil to God.
     
    #211 Reynolds, Jun 8, 2017
  12. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    First off, you can get your bloomers out of a bunch and quit whining. Second. I am no coward. Third, I did not respond to your post because I for all practical purposes agree with it. We could quibble a bit over the exact meaning of spiritually alive, but we agree at a practical level so there is no need.

    So everyone who assumes otherwise will know, I am not an Armenian. I am not a Calvinist in the modern sense of the term. My views are very close to the views of D Jamrs Kennedy. Which is in a tremendously abridged explanation; election is much more closely tied to foreknowledge than absolute predestination.
     
    #212 Reynolds, Jun 8, 2017
  13. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    No. Job was right. God chose to send Satan. I showed you this. God brought evil to Job. But...but...it was because God's plan was good. God sends the bad upon us just as he sends the good.

    If we go with your view then Satan is like God in his power. Neither you nor I believe that. God is infinitely greater than Satan. Satan, therefore, can only do what God grants him the right to do. Satan, like us, does not have a free will.
     
    #213 MennoSota, Jun 8, 2017
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  14. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    No one disputes God can do what he wants, But you are saying God can't give anyone a free choice means you don't believe in God's sovereignty

    Mark 6

    4Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town, among his relatives and in his own home.” 5He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6He was amazed at their lack of faith.



    Jesus Christ was SURPRISE at their lack of faith, Apparently he did not get the Calvinist memo.



    God can do ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING, but he can't predestine free will.


    Calvinism says God can do what he wants as long its the way I WANT.



    Just because the word BRAIN is not in the bible does not mean you do not have a brain.
     
    #214 utilyan, Jun 8, 2017
  15. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    No. You are doing something, but it is not reading. We agreed upon God allowed. God allowed does not equal God did.
     
    #215 Reynolds, Jun 8, 2017
  16. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Utilyan, do you ever get tired of being utterly wrong?
     
    #216 MennoSota, Jun 8, 2017
  17. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    You said God allowed. I said God ordained, which is not some passive, sit-back and watch approach.
    I have provided very specific text showing God ordaining the use of evil to accomplish His good and perfect will.
    Why do you want a passive and wimpy God?
     
    #217 MennoSota, Jun 8, 2017
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  18. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    Six Hour Warning

    This thread will be closed sometime after 11:30 PM Pacific.
     
    #218 Squire Robertsson, Jun 8, 2017
  19. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Why do you want an evil god?
     
    #219 Reynolds, Jun 8, 2017
  20. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    You declare God's will to be evil because you place yourself above God and think of Him as your advisor rather than your Master.
    God is good. All that He ordains is because He is good and His good plans use evil people and tragedy for purposes we will never know.
    God doesn't explain everything to us. He only asks us to trust Him.
     
    #220 MennoSota, Jun 8, 2017
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