Blasphemy is blasphemy. To ascribe the Lord of the Bible with a willy-nilly approach to His election is blasphemy.
I'm telling you it is blasphemous to say that Calvinists think that God is capricious in His election of those He desires. Since Calvinists have never ever said or implied such wickedness -- non-Cals should cease and desist from that line of attack.
It is due to His good pleasure. God has the right to do whatever He wants with people. He doesn't need your permission to do things that you think are unfair.You sound like the objector in Ro. 9:14 (among other places) who charges God with being unjust. Paul had previously said that Jacob was chosen instead of Esau. The objector didn't like that. Paul responded with 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
It's due to His good pleasure as I've said before. But I know that will not satisfy you. Therefore, I will give Paul's answer to the objector in 9:20a :"But who are you, a mere human being, to talk back to God?"
Of course not.
I'm glad you agree with the Bible on this point.
No, quite reasonable. The objections that Paul deals with in Romans 9 demonstrate that anyone who feels sympathetic towards such an individual is arguing against God. That's not a good place for you to be in.
Why Do Arminians Keep Saying Such Things?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Rippon, Aug 23, 2009.
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In contradistiction your side has to ferret-out what's not in the text. Is Caner your favorite expositor of this particular text?
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My wonderfully "ambiguous" reply could have been, "yes I believe Paul's objections are valid." Talk about jumping to conclusions....
Darren -
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Darren -
Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I wonder who these Arminians/Semi-Pelagians are. Such titles are ungodly.
1Co 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? -
So what Paul states for Pharaoh and the rest is for the purposes of God on the earth.
*For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up
*Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
*Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
*Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
*vessels of wrath fitted to destruction
Yet the Calvinist comes to Rom 9:24...
Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
..and assumes it means Exclusive/Effectual election to eternal life within the Gentiles group in addition to the Jews. They assume it means God is NOT showing mercy then on ALL the Gentiles but only some. They read "therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy" meaning God is showing only some Gentiles mercy, therefore whomever objects to the Calvinist claims of election at that point the Calvinist states "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?"
Darren -
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Originally Posted by JDale
First, you seem to equate Arminians and Semi-Pelagians, which is demonstrably ridiculous (no need to rehash this as you've been dressed down about it before).
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Not much you can say when someone assumes that the Apostle Paul was defending Calvinism against non Calvinism in Rom 9. Totally absurd....
Darren -
Can non-Calvinists obtain eternal life?
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Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in
unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
The Bible teaches if a man is lost, it is his own fault. And it clearly gives the reasons.
1) They hold the truth in unrighteousness (vs 18)
2) They are without excuse (vs 20)
3) They did not glorify God (vs 21)
4) They are not thankful to God (vs 21)
5) They became vain in their imaginations (vs 21)
6) They profess themselves to be wise (vs 22)
7) They changed the glory of God into images (vs 23)
8) God gives them up to uncleaness (vs 24)
9) They change the truth of God into a lie (vs 25)
10) They worship the creation and not the Creator (vs 25)
11) God gives them up to vile affections (vs 26)
12) They do not like to retain God in their knowledge (vs 28)
13) fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
14) They have pleasure in others who commit these sins (vs 32)
You Calvinists should study your Bible, the Bible clearly gives the reasons God gives some men up. -
If you read the first three chapters of Romans, you'll see that the point is summarized thus: "All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God." -
By the way, Romans chapter 1 also proves Calvinism false because it shows unsaved man clearly knows and understands what he is doing.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Calvinism teaches that a man can only understand the scriptures if he is regenerated first. The Bible shows the opposite. -
Nice try. -
The little sarcastic try at being funny by saying we "should study [our] Bible" only shows that you don't understand Calvinism yet. When I studied apologetics and debating, we were taught that until you can articulate your opponents' position in words that were acceptable to him, you were not ready to debate the issue.
For example, we had to debate the issue of baptism. But we had to study the paedo-baptist's position and take a turn defending it, before we took our turn defending the credobaptist position.
You and many (not all) of the Calvinist bashers on this forum are a long ways from being able to do that. -
Quote: Charles Haddon Spurgeon
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