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Featured Why do non cals say cals teach regeneration before faith?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by DaChaser1, Mar 13, 2012.

  1. Forest

    Forest New Member

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    Christ has made his elect free from the false doctring of eternal salvation by the works of man.
     
  2. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Who has made a claim in this thread, or any other thread for that matter, that eternal salvation is by works of man? I sure haven't, nor have I seen anyone else made this claim.
     
  3. Forest

    Forest New Member

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    You have said that your faith has saved you eternally. So, that would make eternal salvation by your action of faith. Faith is dead without works. I guess then, that you think that you have eternally saved yourself. Our faith has saved (delivered) us from many things in this world, but our faith does not deliver us from this sinful world to eternal life.
     
  4. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    No matter what we trust in Christ even if we think we are faithless we trust in Christ. We should never say that I will never deny Christ or depend on our self, but on the faithfulness of Jesus Christ.

    Only in Christ are we saved, He changes us even if we don't believe in our self, but in Him.

    We fall down we get up and follow Christ, because we are not depending on our faithfulness, but on the faithfulness of God through Jesus Christ.

    "1. First, NEGATIVELY; and here my first observation is that any other way of preaching the gospel-warrant is absurd. If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. But you will tell me that I ought to preach it only to those who repent of their sins. Very well; but since true repentance of sin is the work of the Spirit, any man who has repentance is most certainly saved, because evangelical repentance never can exist in an unrenewed soul. Where there is repentance there is faith already, for they never can be separated. So, then, I am only to preach faith to those who have it. Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners. "Nay," saith one, "but we mean that a man must have some good desires towards Christ before he has any warrant to believe in Jesus." Friend, do you not know what all good desires have some degree of holiness in them? But if a sinner hath any degree of true holiness in him it must be the work of the Spirit, for true holiness never exists in the carnal mind, therefore, that man is already renewed, and therefore saved. Are we to go running up and down the world, proclaiming life to the living, casting bread to those who are fed already, and holding up Christ on the pole of the gospel to those who are already healed? My brethren, where is our inducement to labour where our efforts are so little needed? If I am to preach Christ to those who have no goodness, who have nothing in them that qualifies them for mercy, then I feel I have a gospel so divine that I would proclaim it with my last breath, crying aloud, that "Jesus came into the world to save sinners"—sinners as sinners, not as penitent sinners or as awakened sinners, but sinners as sinners, sinners "of whom I am chief."
    Secondly, to tell the sinner that he is to believe on Christ because of some warrant in himself, is legal, I dare to say it—legal. Though this method is generally adopted by the higher school of Calvinists, they are herein unsound, uncalvinistic, and legal; it is strange that they who are so bold defenders of free grace should make common cause with Baxterians and Pelagians. I lay it down to he legal for this reason: if I believe in Jesus Christ because I feel a genuine repentance of sin, and therefore have a warrant for my faith, do you not perceive that the first and true ground of my confidence is the fact that I have repented of sin? If I believe in Jesus because I have convictions and a spirit of prayer, then evidently the first and the most important fact is not Christ, but my possession of repentance, conviction, and prayer, so that really my hope hinges upon my having repented; and if this be not legal I do not know what is. Put it lower. My opponents will say, "The sinner must have an awakened conscience before he is warranted to believe on Christ." Well, then, if I trust Christ to save me because I have an awakened conscience, I say again, the most important part of the whole transaction is the alarm of my conscience, and my real trust hangs there. If I lean on Christ because I feel this and that, then I am leaning on my feelings and not on Christ alone, and this is legal indeed. Nay, even if desires after Christ are to be my warrant for believing, if I am to believe in Jesus not because he bids me, but because I feel some desires after him, you will again with half an eye perceive that the most important source of my comfort must be my own desires. So that we shall be always looking within. "Do I really desire? If I do, then Christ can save me; if I do not, then he cannot." And so my desire overrides Christ and his grace. Away with such' legality from the earth!"

    C.H. Spurgeon

    We should never be looking within our self for salvation, but only in Jesus Christ.

    Psalm 73:28
    But it is good for me to draw near to God; I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, That I may declare all Your works.

    Romans 4:
    4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
     
    #84 psalms109:31, Mar 26, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 26, 2012
  5. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    My faith was a gift from God, and did not originate from me. If I give you $50.00, then after I gave it to you, it's yours. Add to your faith, knowledge, patience.....
     
  6. Forest

    Forest New Member

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    I suppose that you keep a list every year of how many eternally lost souls that you have lead to Christ that they might be saved eternally, Is that right? Well, pat yourself on the back and swell up with pride that you have been such a good helper to God! A preacher by feeding God's sheep can be responsable through the revelation of the Holy Spirit of delivering (saving) many of God's sheep from believing in a false doctrine that will give them no comfort, and teaching them the truth of the doctrine of Christ. We are not here to help God eternally save souls. Christ accomplished that on the cross for all that God gave him, which is all of his elect, and he will not lose a one of them, but raise them all up at the lst day,John 6:37-41.
     
  7. Forest

    Forest New Member

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    Yes, but the point is, that God does not give faith to the natural man until he has quickened him together with Christ and put his Holy Spirit within him. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit, so, without having posession of the Holy Spirit man does not have spiritual faith, 1 Cor 2:14. Faith without works is dead, James 2:20, faith is expressed by our works and man is not eternally saved by works. The regenerated man can be saved (delivered) many times here in this world by his obedience (works) to God. If you apply all salvation scriptures to eternal salvation you will never understand the truth. Most salvation scriptures are pertaining to deliverances here in this world.
     
  8. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    Regeneration before faith is ridiculous that is the Gospel of Calvinism that Spurgeon preached.

    This is what the scripture says.

    2 Corinthians 5:
    16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[Or Christ, that person is a new creation.] The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[Or be a sin offering] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.


    1 Peter 1:
    22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart.[Some early manuscripts from a pure heart] 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,

    “All people are like grass,
    and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
    the grass withers and the flowers fall,
    25 but the word of the Lord endures forever.”[Isaiah 40:6-8 (see Septuagint)]

    And this is the word that was preached to you.



    Philippians 2:
    Do Everything Without Grumbling
    12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

    14 Do everything without grumbling or arguing, 15 so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.”[Deut. 32:5] Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky 16 as you hold firmly to the word of life. And then I will be able to boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain. 17 But even if I am being poured out like a drink offering on the sacrifice and service coming from your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you. 18 So you too should be glad and rejoice with me.

    1 John 1
    The Incarnation of the Word of Life
    1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We write this to make our[Some manuscripts your] joy complete.

    Acts 4:12
    Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”
     
    #88 psalms109:31, Mar 28, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 28, 2012
  9. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Regeneration does not preceed salvation, and it's nowhere in the bible.
     
  10. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Oh yea.... What of Sauls conversion....Acts 8:3 As for Saul, he made havoc of the church, entering every house & dragging off men & women, committing them to prison.

    Acts 9:1-5

    9 Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.

    3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”

    5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”

    Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.[a] It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”

    He was an enemy of the Church of Christ.....He approved of the murder of Stephen & he was an active member of a group that put Christs Church in Prison. Christ has to intervene, knock him off his damn horse & blind him. And then God / Christ has to ask him, "Why are you persecuting me?

    And if you even think Paul had Salvation prior to that point, you are clearly delusional.
     
    #90 Earth Wind and Fire, Mar 28, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 28, 2012
  11. Forest

    Forest New Member

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    I do not hold to regeneration preceeding eternal salvation. All of those that are saved eternally were saved by Christ on the cross. Christ did not die so that we would have a choice to choose eternal salvation. All of those that he died for will spend eternity with him in heaven without the loss of one, John 6:37-41. Christ eternally saved all of those that God choose and gave to him and he said while on the cross "it is finnished", meaning the work that God sent him to do was finnished. There has not been a soul eternally saved in over 2000 years.
     
  12. Forest

    Forest New Member

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    Tit 3:5, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.
     
  13. Forest

    Forest New Member

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    I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. I believe that Paul was eternally saved by Christ on the cross, and that he had been born again at sometime prior to his conversion on the road to Damaskas. Paul sat at the feet of Gamaliel and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day, Acts 22:3. This is not the action, or the capability, of the natural man according to 1 Cor 2:14. Another case of not understanding the depravity of man. Paul did some terriable things before his conversion as we all do, but it does not negate the fact that he was already a child of God. Look at the terriable things that David did and he was a man after God's own heart.
     
  14. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    What?? :confused:
     
  15. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    So, whose fault is that? Did God not make it clear enough, did God not make me smart enough, ORRR did God make me free to make a judgement and either accept the truth or trade that truth in for a lie thus making me responsible for my choice?
     
  16. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Scripture disagrees with you:

    John 3:15
    that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

    John 3:36
    Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

    John 3:16
    "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    John 6:40
    For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
     
    #96 Skandelon, Mar 29, 2012
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  17. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    With all due respect Forest, The Man "Saul" persecuted Jesus Christ & I will contend that anyone who persecutes Christ then does not know Him. Thats not salvation....its piety. Saul was a pious religious man, not a Christian. To know Christ, to love Christ & to honor Christ is true salvation. You cant have hate for Christ in your heart & do what Saul did to the brethren!

    Salvation only came to me when I was confronted with the question, "why do you do the things you do (Sinning) and still call yourself a Christian?" You would not do the things you do if you loved & honored Jesus. I thought long & hard about that condemnation & thats what broke my heart, shamed me & slowly changed me & thats what changed Saul....and out of the ashes rose a "New & Reborn Man" ....the man called Paul.

    I am firmly convinced that my Lord is great....he can take us putrid sinful mortals & remake us in His image. Then we, like children being led & with our eyes wide open cry LORD LORD. Now thats salvation.

    note Im not disagreeing that Christs death on the cross saves, I am saying that the HS must provide the Grace to wake us up from our sinful lethargy.....I do not see Saul being regenerated until Christ directly confronts him.
     
    #97 Earth Wind and Fire, Mar 29, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 29, 2012
  18. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

    There is no way that Saul of Tarsus was eternally saved and rebelling against God called men.
     
  19. Forest

    Forest New Member

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    The only way an elect child of God can understand the truth of the doctrine of Christ is only by the revealation of Holy Spirit. The person who seeks to know the truth by his own intelect will never understand the truth, it must be revealed by the Holy Spirit. This way man gets no credit for his eternal salvation, only God gets all of the credit. There are many more of God's elect who do not understand the truth, than there are that do understand the truth, Matt 7:13-14.
     
  20. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    The only way ANYONE can understand the truth of the doctrine of Christ is only by the revelation of the Holy Spirit. That revelation is called The Word of God, and it is contained in the scripture. There is NO EXCUSE for those who have the clear revelation. They DO understand it and are responsible for their response to it.
     
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