Figure of speech.
Why Does Satan Blind Those Born Already Blind?
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by saved and sure, Jul 10, 2018.
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The Archangel Well-Known Member
The Archangel -
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The Archangel Well-Known Member
The Archangel -
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Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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The Archangel Well-Known Member
[1] Now the tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to hear him. [2] And the Pharisees and the scribes grumbled, saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them.”Three parables follow--Lost sheep, Lost coin, Prodigal son. All three have the same point: Rejoicing over the return of what (or who was lost). The contrast in the end of the Prodigal Son of the older brother to the father demonstrates the older brother and his refusal to even go into the party for his younger brother is the point. And, that illustrates exactly what Luke tells us it does in Luke 15:2--the Pharisees and scribes grumbled. Why did Jesus tell the parable? Because the Pharisees and scribes grumbled. Who grumbles in the Prodigal Son? The older brother. The older brother is the Pharisees and scribes and, therefore, he is the point.
[3] So he told them this parable: (ESV)
The Archangel -
Claim:
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A corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit. Why? Because it's beholden to corruption? or is it because it's just a diseased tree?
But it isn't said that men are corpses. It's not a Calvinist thing. Some well meaning yet misguided Calvinist may be carrying a corpse example he heard once a little too far, but it isn't asserted in the Scriptures that men are corpses. It is said that men are dead. Those who die the Second Death: are they unconscious? Do they not feel the heat of God's wrath and righteous indignation. Do they not gnash their teeth, so to speak? Do they not wail? Do they not weap?
But they're dead.
You must be arguing with the fringe element. A corpse can do no evil. That's what I would say to them. -
RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member
Regarding the heart of the matter, that’s what I was trying to get at in earlier posts regarding the fall, as it seems central to the issue. Was man unaware of his state after the fall?
You made a statement here that may not be supportable, namely that one blind does not know he is blind. This is possibly true, but not necessarily so. Still, we might be able to agree that he does not know what he does not see. Hearing about sight might intrigue him enough to want to see. But we can agree that he cannot will himself to see. However, if there is someone who has the power to give him sight, that is a different matter entirely. Now he can ask for sight. If he does not want to see, well, unless he is to be forced, then he will remain blind, and left with the consequences. -
Why do you bring up "logic"? Most of the people at Mar's Hill rejected Paul's words because the words were not "logical"...they were spiritual. That's another subject for another time, IMO.
As a very logical man in the flesh, when I look at God's word, I have learned that the only way to do so is by faith.
I do it because I take Jesus at His words:
" Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." ( John 17:17 )
" Thy word [is] a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. ( Psalm 119:105 )
I have come to believe that I can't trust my logic as far as I can throw it, and God tells me not to ( Proverbs 3:5-6 ).
Again, if I haven't stated it enough before, God's words are not addressed to logic, they are addressed to His children who by faith, trust Him, not their own understanding. They trust His word to be true, and gain their understanding of it from it. Scripture "interprets" Scripture, and precept is built upon precept. Besides all this, God's children are dull of hearing ( Hebrews 5:11 ) and it takes time to transform the mind:
" And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." ( Romans 12:2 )
How is this accomplished?
" But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." ( Ephesians 4:20-24 )
" Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2 as newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
3 if so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious." ( 1 Peter 2:1-3 )
Have you tasted that the Lord is gracious?
Then desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby...growth takes time, and God will reward those who diligently seek Him.
May God's blessings be upon you, and upon your every effort to do so.
His grace to you sir. -
The central question in Calvinism is, Does man choose, or does God? That will always be the question. Calvinsm says God chooses. That will always be the answer. And the objection to that answer will always be, But why doth He yet find fault, for who hath resisted His will? -
That is not what is written.
But that is not what is written.
And despite the destructive teaching to the contrary, love is not a choice. One loves what he loves. A corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit.
And you're right, this is the crux of the issue.
But look at what you've just said. Those who are saved are saved because they did better than those who are not. -
One weaps what he sows. -
Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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The Archangel Well-Known Member
There are many points to be taken from the parable of the Prodigal Son. But, the main point is the response of the older brother. If you or I am to do any justice to the text in preaching or teaching or studying it, the main point must be the main point. Otherwise, one is just doing violence to the text by missing Luke's (and Jesus') intended point.
The Archangel -
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