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Featured Why does the SDA see Ellen White as a prophetess?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Yeshua1, Apr 23, 2015.

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  1. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Not entirely accurate:


    Philippians 3:6

    King James Version (KJV)

    6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.



    Paul exhorts us to be blameless:


    Philippians 2:14-16


    King James Version (KJV)

    14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

    15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

    16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.



    Scripture gives an example of what that might be...


    Luke 1:5-6

    King James Version (KJV)

    5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

    6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.



    I do agree this is from a temporal perspective, but I also believe Paul was not bragging, just stating a fact that there were none that could accuse him of failure to comply with the Law. Even in his persecuting of the Church I believe Paul sincerely believed he did the will of God in throwing down what he felt was blasphemous error which was harmful to Israel as a whole, even as other prophets did before him.

    Keeping the Law in a manner in which no man could accuse one was not something impossible. In fact, I would say it would have been easier than having discernment of sin and the eternal perspective the Lord has given to the Body of Christ.

    You know what they say, ignorance is bliss, and how true that is for us, right? Remember when first you were saved, did you understand sin as you do now? I know I didn't. The more I understand sin in the world and myself...the better I understand the dire nature of my former condition, and my ongoing reliance on God for cleansing even now.

    But we have to distinguish between the temporal and the eternal in Scripture. The best example that comes to mind first is Atonement as contrasted between the Law and the New Covenant. Both brought atonement, but only Atonement in Christ is eternal. That does not nullify the fact that God allowed atonement through vicarious death, but we have to distinguish the results of both. One is temporal and temporary, the other complete and eternal.

    I believe Paul was blameless, not just in the eyes of the Pharisees, but in the eyes of God. I just don't think Paul would have said it as a born again Apostle of Christ if it were not true. I believe he meant it from a temporal perspective, and again, think that is the significance we have to keep in mind when we examine Scripture. Paul is not speaking of being perfect, or complete, as the writer of Hebrews teaches concerning our condition in the eternal perspective, but simply saying "No man could charge me with transgression in regards to the Covenant of Law."

    I think the same could be said for Luke's statement.


    God bless.
     
  2. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Brother vooks, here is what you had originally cited, from the ESV, and please notice the difference, between it and the King James Bible, please read carefully:
    Here then is what I cited from the King James Bible:
    ...
     
  3. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Do you see the difference between the ESV and the KJB? Look again:

    ESV: Philipians 3:6 (ESV)
    6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless.

    KJB: Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. - Philippians 3:6

    The ESV can be read in two ways, where as the KJV can only be read in one way. Notice the ESV can mean:

    [1] that Paul was a persecutor 'against' [of] the Church [as in he was attacking the Church], or
    [2] that Paul was a persecutor 'for' [of, as in belonging to] the Church [meaning he was the 'soldier' attacking others in the name of the Church, this would fit with Romanism]...​

    For instance, if I said, I am a washer of windows of the Church, it could mean I belong to the Church and wash the windows therein, or it could mean, I, not belonging to the Church, am a washer of their windows simply providing outside service.

    Secondarily, the last portion, of the ESV reads "under the Law", which is not the same as the "righteousness" "in the Law". The two are not synonymous in their meaning, especially when compared to Romans 3:19, wherein "under the law" directly means to be "guilty before God", a "transgressor" [1 John 3:4].

    Therefore, when you say:
    The answer is unequivocally, "No." The KJB is not corrupt, but the ESV is, in numerous places, and if a full comparison were to be done here, the drastic changes to doctrine, the Everlasting Gospel and to Jesus Himself, among myriads of other things, should shock anyone in love with God.

    Brother, the context was shown you, as to how Paul related to the "law", being "Pharisee". A matter of "the letter", not of the Spirit [Matthew 5, Romans 7:6, etc]. It was Pharisaical "blameless[ness]", a mere outward show of exterior, a hypocritical position, not of actual, for Paul would then contradict himself here, it if were [as in other places]:

    As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: - Romans 3:10

    They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. - Romans 3:12

    The dispute is not with Paul, nor of Scripture, but with how he is being read by yourself in this matter. Paul was not lying, since he was Christian in writing the Epistle, for that would have been then sin [1 John 3:4], which he says:

    God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? - Romans 6:2

    What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. - Romans 6:15

    What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. - Romans 7:7

    Scripture does so,

    That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; - Philippians 2:15

    Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. - 2 Peter 3:14

    The same word is used here:

    For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. - Hebrews 8:7

    Brother, please see the context of how Paul said he was "blameless" in regards matters of "the law", being Pharisee, in vs 5:

    "... as touching the law, a Pharisee ..." - Philippians 3:5

    Please explain a little further, what do you mean by "cherry pick"? I would like to see some details to this, that I may respond in full, with Scripture, of course.

    But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: - Acts 24:14​
     
    #123 One Baptism, May 3, 2015
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  4. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Yes, as demonstrated by the cited text, 1 Corinthians 3:16; and see also 1 Corinthians 3:17, 6:19; 2 Corinthians 6:16; 2 Thessalonians 2:4; 1 Peter 2:5; Revelation 3:12, 11:1, etc and even OT, for instance Ezekiel.

    Notice, also in the fallen churches and them therein, who are without the Holy Spirit indwelling, they are filled with all uncleanness:

    And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. - Revelation 18:2

    Sure, agreed, based upon the Scripture you have just cited [2 Corinthians 5:1-2], and I also previously.

    Please, follow the Scriptural "way".

    Yes, indeed. Those which are found in Christ Jesus in the end, have the Holy Spirit forever with/in them.

    ...Will believers in regeneration be Spirit filled? ... [/quote]Yes.

    And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. - 1 John 3:24

    Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. - 1 John 4:13

    Also:

    If [there be] therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, - Philippians 2:1

    Notice, for as the body without the breath/spirit is dead, so too, the spiritual man/mind without the Holy Spirit of God is not alive:

    For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. - James 2:26

    For men, can be 'alive' in the flesh, having breath/spirit, but dead, being without the Holy Spirit of God:

    But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. - Matthew 8:22

    Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God. - Luke 9:60

    They would be spiritually dead without Him, and could not be in Heaven, for the Spirit is Life:

    And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness. - Romans 8:10

    You see, as it is written:

    Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. - 1 Corinthians 15:46

    God prepared a "natural" body for Jesus Christ, but also the Spiritual Body [the Church] He is to inhabit by/through the Holy Spirit, forever, for as it is written, the Body without the Spirit is dead, now consider this passage again:

    Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: - Hebrews 10:5

    The Church is also that spiritual Body, that Christ Jesus is to dwell in, by/through the Holy Spirit, forever, for the Bride and Groom, are to be "one" [atonement]:

    For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. - Ephesians 5:23

    And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. - Colossians 1:18

    Lastly, and please do not misunderstand here [God's foreknowledge, does not impair free choice/will, if questions on this, please ask, I will explain further, with Scripture], in that Immortality is always conditional, when it comes to created beings.

    And we are his witnesses of these things; and [so is] also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. - Acts 5:32​
     
    #124 One Baptism, May 3, 2015
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  5. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Brother Robert, let us reduce name-calling and remain to the matters of Scripture, please. Let us keep the tone, in harmony with God's word, for there is a matter of overstepping those bounds of our speech/lips/fingers. I understand that you may not presently agree with said person [sister White].

    There is quite a bit incorrect in this [undocumented - linked] article. To which of the multitudinous evidences would you like to consider first, for to merely place a list before me or any, without actual consideration from the side 'accused', it is not much of a trial, nor of the following of the commandments in Scripture:

    To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them. - Isaiah 8:20

    And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. - 1 Corinthians 14:32

    Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. - 1 John 4:1

    etc, etc...


    This seems somewhat borrowed from CS Lewis [Liar, Lunatic or of the Lord], but there is a lot more to consider than sister White in the differences between 'evangelicals' and the Seventh-day Adventist movement. She is but one component, necessary and important, but one, none-the-less.

    What is so damning here? It is but the declaration of how all the prophets, messengers of the LORD [male or female] and/or Holy men of God have worked.

    All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: - 2 Timothy 3:16

    For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost. - 2 Peter 1:21

    Consider Moses, as but one example:

    And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do. - Exodus 18:20

    And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it. - Deuteronomy 4:14

    But as for thee, stand thou here by me, and I will speak unto thee all the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which thou shalt teach them, that they may do [them] in the land which I give them to possess it. - Deuteronomy 5:31

    The main problem, generally, is that most do not understand how prophets, messengers of the LORD function. They have not studied thoroughly enough, and thus is a matter of ignorance [not malicious], which may be remedied, if willing.

    Indeed, for she, being a true messenger of the LORD, and the message proven by Scripture, it is folly to not heed that instruction, even if it come through a donkey:

    And they rose early in the morning, and went forth into the wilderness of Tekoa: and as they went forth, Jehoshaphat stood and said, Hear me, O Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem; Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper. - 2 Chronicles 20:20

    And the LORD hath sent unto you all his servants the prophets, rising early and sending [them]; but ye have not hearkened, nor inclined your ear to hear. - Jeremiah 25:4

    To hearken to the words of my servants the prophets, whom I sent unto you, both rising up early, and sending [them], but ye have not hearkened; - Jeremiah 26:5

    Because they have not hearkened to my words, saith the LORD, which I sent unto them by my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending [them]; but ye would not hear, saith the LORD. - Jeremiah 29:19

    I have sent also unto you all my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending [them], saying, Return ye now every man from his evil way, and amend your doings, and go not after other gods to serve them, and ye shall dwell in the land which I have given to you and to your fathers: but ye have not inclined your ear, nor hearkened unto me. - Jeremiah 35:15

    Howbeit I sent unto you all my servants the prophets, rising early and sending [them], saying, Oh, do not this abominable thing that I hate. - Jeremiah 44:4

    Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land. - Daniel 9:6

    Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets. - Daniel 9:10

    As already demonstrated, it is folly to not heed the humble instrument God chooses to send, be it angel, man, woman, animal or other.

    And he that regarded not the word of the LORD left his servants and his cattle in the field. - Exodus 9:21

    But my words and my statutes, which I commanded my servants the prophets, did they not take hold of your fathers? and they returned and said, Like as the LORD of hosts thought to do unto us, according to our ways, and according to our doings, so hath he dealt with us. - Zechariah 1:6

    [Should ye] not [hear] the words which the LORD hath cried by the former prophets, when Jerusalem was inhabited and in prosperity, and the cities thereof round about her, when [men] inhabited the south and the plain? - Zechariah 7:7

    Also:

    I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets. - Hosea 12:10

    Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. - Amos 3:7

    Very dangerous position:

    Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye. - Acts 7:51

    Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: - Acts 7:52​

    The prophets and messengers of the LORD, when given a message from God, never claimed the word(s) they spake as their own, hence "Thus saith the LORD..." and so on.

    Indeed, for prophets and messengers are a gift of God to the Church, until the very end:

    And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; - Ephesians 4:11

    For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: - Ephesians 4:12

    Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: - Ephesians 4:13

    That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; - Ephesians 4:14

    and much more can be cited, here. All messengers/prophets of God, are equally inspired by Him, whether they have written or not written, for God is no respector of persons. Daniel was not less or more inspired than was Isaiah, nor less or more inspired than Huldah, etc.

    So called 'evidence', as most of the quotations are removed from out of their immediate and overall context(s) and gravely abused thereby, thus placing them in an incorrect light, as well as incorrect page citations, etc. This may be demonstrated individually.
     
  6. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    That quotation is actually from Early Writings Page 74 [1882 ed.], not 64. - http://www.temcat.com/L-3-SOP-Library/Orig&Early/EW.pdf

    Secondly, that quotation, in its context says nothing of sister White "predict[ing]" the Second coming of Christ Jesus by it. It has to do with the "figures" [Daniel, Revelation, time prophecies] on the chart, and in context, the event(s) spoken of, is the matters of the beginning and ending of the 2,300 day/yeas of Daniel 8:13-14,26, as well as the 1,260, 1,290, 1,335 day/years, the 70 weeks [490 years], etc. The quotation in its context clearly reveal that the Millerite and the advent movement had been correct on the time [after the seventh month movement, from Samuel S Snow, etc], but they all had misunderstood the phrase "then shall the sanctuary shall be cleansed" [of Daniel 8:14] and thus the event hoped for was incorrect, but the "time" was spot on and that there needed to be no longer any re-calculation of those time prophecies.

    This may be demonstrated in greater detail if required.

    Again, this is removed from its context altogether, and does not deal with 1843/44 events, except leading away from it [the Midnight Cry], unto the final coming of Jesus, wherein the Father reveals by His own voice just before. It specifically deals with the events after the close of this world's probation, God's people are sealed, etc - http://text.egwwritings.org/publica...ang=en&collection=2&section=all&pagenumber=14

    Furthermore, this is not the only place in which those words are recorded, and in all the contexts, it is always placed in the same stream of time, namely after the close of Probation, for God's word never declares that we shall not ever know the Day and Hour, but that God the Father Himself would speak it:

    The General Sequence, from both Scripture [First] and SoP, and the following merely given to demonstrate the appropriate context [see "5." and the page numbers and the events given therein, in their order as written]:

    1. Michael stands up; Daniel 12:1; Luke 13:25; Revelation 22:11, &c: Probation closes

    {Great Controversy; Page 613}

    "... “At that time shall Michael stand up, the great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, everyone that shall be found written in the book.” Daniel 12:1.

    When the third angel’s message closes, mercy no longer pleads for the guilty inhabitants of the earth. The people of God have accomplished their work. ..." - http://text.egwwritings.org/publication.php?pubtype=Book&bookCode=GC&lang=en&pagenumber=613

    2. Time of Trouble; Psalms 27:5, 37:39; Isaiah 33:2; Daniel 12:1 &c - Search Results for "time" AND "trouble" - http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=time+trouble&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1

    {Great Controversy; Page 613}

    "... They have received “the latter rain,” “the refreshing from the presence of the Lord,” and they are prepared for the trying hour before them. Angels are hastening to and fro in heaven. An angel returning from the earth announces that his work is done; the final test has been brought upon the world, and all who have proved themselves loyal to the divine precepts have received “the seal of the living God.” Then Jesus ceases His intercession in the sanctuary above. He lifts His hands and with a loud voice says, “It is done;” and all the angelic host lay off their crowns as He makes the solemn announcement: “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.” Revelation 22:11. Every case has been decided for life or death. Christ has made the atonement for His people ..." - http://text.egwwritings.org/publication.php?pubtype=Book&bookCode=GC&lang=en&pagenumber=613

    3. God’s people delivered; Proverbs 11:21, 28:26; Isaiah 49:25; Ezekiel 14:16,18; Daniel 12:1; Joel 2:32; Romans 8:21 &c;

    {Great Controversy; Page 635-636}

    "... When the protection of human laws shall be withdrawn from those who honor the law of God, there will be, in different lands, a simultaneous movement for their destruction. As the time appointed in the decree draws near, the people will conspire to root out the hated sect. It will be determined to strike in one night a decisive blow, which shall utterly silence the voice of dissent and reproof.

    The people of God—some in prison cells, some hidden in solitary retreats in the forests and the mountains—still plead for divine protection, while in every quarter companies of armed men, urged on by hosts of evil angels, are preparing for the work of death. It is now, in the hour of utmost extremity, that the God of Israel will interpose for the deliverance of His chosen. Saith the Lord; “Ye shall have a song, as in the night when a holy solemnity is kept; and gladness of heart, as when one goeth ... to come into the mountain of the Lord, to the Mighty One of Israel. And the Lord shall cause His glorious voice to be heard, and shall show the lighting down of His arm, with the indignation of His anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones.” Isaiah 30:29, 30.

    With shouts of triumph, jeering, and imprecation, throngs of evil men are about to rush upon their prey, when, lo, a [Page 635-636] dense blackness, deeper than the darkness of the night, falls upon the earth. Then a rainbow, shining with the glory from the throne of God, spans the heavens and seems to encircle each praying company. The angry multitudes are suddenly arrested. Their mocking cries die away. The objects of their murderous rage are forgotten. With fearful forebodings they gaze upon the symbol of God’s covenant and long to be shielded from its overpowering brightness.

    By the people of God a voice, clear and melodious, is heard, saying, “Look up,” and lifting their eyes to the heavens, they behold the bow of promise. The black, angry clouds that covered the firmament are parted, and like Stephen they look up steadfastly into heaven and see the glory of God and the Son of man seated upon His throne. In His divine form they discern the marks of His humiliation; and from His lips they hear the request presented before His Father and the holy angels: “I will that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am.” John 17:24. Again a voice, musical and triumphant, is heard, saying: “They come! they come! holy, harmless, and undefiled. They have kept the word of My patience; they shall walk among the angels;” and the pale, quivering lips of those who have held fast their faith utter a shout of victory.

    It is at midnight that God manifests His power for the deliverance of His people. The sun appears, shining in its strength. Signs and wonders follow in quick succession. The wicked look with terror and amazement upon the scene, while the righteous behold with solemn joy the tokens of their deliverance. Everything in nature seems turned out of its course. The streams cease to flow. Dark, heavy clouds come up and clash against each other. In the midst of the angry heavens is one clear space of indescribable glory, whence comes the voice of God like the sound of many waters, saying: “It is done.” Revelation 16:17. ..." - http://text.egwwritings.org/publication.php?pubtype=Book&bookCode=GC&lang=en&pagenumber=635

    4. Special Resurrection; Daniel 12:2,12; Matthew 26:64; Mark 14:62; Revelation 1:7, 14:13 &c

    {Great Controversy; Page 637}

    "... Graves are opened, and “many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth... awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” Daniel 12:2. All who have died in the faith of the third angel’s message come forth from the tomb glorified, to hear God’s covenant of peace with those who have kept His law. “They also which pierced Him” (Revelation 1:7), those that mocked and derided Christ’s dying agonies, and the most violent opposers of His truth and His people, are raised to behold Him in His glory and to see the honor placed upon the loyal and obedient. ..." - http://text.egwwritings.org/publication.php?pubtype=Book&bookCode=GC&lang=en&pagenumber=637

    ...to be continued...
     
  7. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    ...continued...

    5. Voice of God announcing the hour; Jeremiah 25:30; Joel 2:11, 3:16; Amos 1:2; Job 40:9; Psalms 18:13, 77:18, 104:7; 1 Samuel 2:10; 2 Samuel 22:14; Matthew 24:36; Mark 13:32; John 12:29; 2 Peter 1:17-18; Revelation 14:2; &c

    {Great Controversy; Page 640}

    "... The voice of God is heard from heaven, declaring the day and hour of Jesus’ coming, and delivering the everlasting covenant to His people. Like peals of loudest thunder His words roll through the earth. The Israel of God stand listening, with their eyes fixed upward. Their countenances are lighted up with His glory, and shine as did the face of Moses when he came down from Sinai. The wicked cannot look upon them. And when the blessing is pronounced on those who have honored God by keeping His Sabbath holy, there is a mighty shout of victory. ..." - http://text.egwwritings.org/publication.php?pubtype=Book&bookCode=GC&lang=en&pagenumber=640

    6. Small black cloud; See Elijah in 1 Kings 18:43-46, also Ezekiel 1:4; Isaiah 19:1; Matthew 24:30; Revelation 14:14-16; &c

    {Great Controversy; Page 640-642 &c; Maranatha; Page 287}

    "... Soon there appears in the east a small black cloud, about half the size of a man’s hand. It is the cloud which surrounds the Saviour and which seems in the distance to be shrouded in darkness. The people of God know this to be the sign of the Son of man. In solemn silence they gaze upon it as it [Page 640-641] draws nearer the earth, becoming lighter and more glorious, until it is a great white cloud, its base a glory like consuming fire, and above it the rainbow of the covenant. Jesus rides forth as a mighty conqueror. Not now a “Man of Sorrows,” to drink the bitter cup of shame and woe, He comes, victor in heaven and earth, to judge the living and the dead. “Faithful and True,” “in righteousness He doth judge and make war.” And “the armies which were in heaven” (Revelation 19:11, 14) follow Him. With anthems of celestial melody the holy angels, a vast, unnumbered throng, attend Him on His way. The firmament seems filled with radiant forms—“ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands.” No human pen can portray the scene; no mortal mind is adequate to conceive its splendor. “His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of His praise. And His brightness was as the light.” Habakkuk 3:3, 4. As the living cloud comes still nearer, every eye beholds the Prince of life. No crown of thorns now mars that sacred head; but a diadem of glory rests on His holy brow. His countenance outshines the dazzling brightness of the noonday sun. “And He hath on His vesture and on His thigh a name written, King of kings, and Lord of lords.” Revelation 19:16.

    Before His presence “all faces are turned into paleness;” upon the rejecters of God’s mercy falls the terror of eternal despair. “The heart melteth, and the knees smite together, ... and the faces of them all gather blackness.” Jeremiah 30:6; Nahum 2:10. The righteous cry with trembling: “Who shall be able to stand?” The angels’ song is hushed, and there is a period of awful silence. Then the voice of Jesus is heard, saying: “My grace is sufficient for you.” The faces of the righteous are lighted up, and joy fills every heart. And the angels strike a note higher and sing again as they draw still nearer to the earth.

    The King of kings descends upon the cloud, wrapped in flaming fire. The heavens are rolled together as a scroll, the earth trembles before Him, and every mountain and island [Page 641-642] is moved out of its place. “Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before Him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about Him. He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that He may judge His people.” Psalm 50:3, 4. ..." - http://text.egwwritings.org/publication.php?pubtype=Book&bookCode=GC&lang=en&pagenumber=640

    7. General First Great Resurrection

    {{first great} resurrection {of the saints, just, life, before/at start of the 1000 years when Christ Jesus returns in Power and Glory}, raised} 1 Samuel 2:6; Job 14:12-14, 19:26; Hosea 13:14; Matthew 22:31; Mark 12:18,23,25; Luke 14:14, 20:35,36; John 5:29a, 6:25,28,29,39,40,44,54, 11:24,25; Acts 4:2, 17:31,32, 23:6, 24:15a,21; Romans 6:5,8, 8:11; 1 Corinthians 15:12,13,16,20,21,23,29,32,35,42,43,52-55; Philippians 3:10,11; Colossians 3:3; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Timothy 2:18, 4:1; Hebrews 6:2, 11:35; Revelation 20:5b,6; {]All the Holy "Clouds" of Angels {the "reapers"} with Him} Psalms 68:17, 104:3; Isaiah 66:15; Matthew 13:39,49, 16:27, 24:30, 25:31,51, 26:64; Mark 8:38, 13:27; Luke 9:26, 21:27; Acts 1:9-11; 1 Thessalonians 3:13, 4:16-17; Hebrews 1:7; Revelation 1:7, 12:7

    {Great Controversy; Page 644}

    "... Amid the reeling of the earth, the flash of lightning, and the roar of thunder, the voice of the Son of God calls forth the sleeping saints. He looks upon the graves of the righteous, then, raising His hands to heaven, He cries: “Awake, awake, awake, ye that sleep in the dust, and arise!” Throughout the length and breadth of the earth the dead shall hear that voice, and they that hear shall live. And the whole earth shall ring with the tread of the exceeding great army of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. From the prison house of death they come, clothed with immortal glory, crying: “O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?” 1 Corinthians 15:55. And the living righteous and the risen saints unite their voices in a long, glad shout of victory.

    All come forth from their graves the same in stature as when they entered the tomb. Adam, who stands among the risen throng, is of lofty height and majestic form, in stature but little below the Son of God. He presents a marked contrast to the people of later generations; in this one respect is shown the great degeneracy of the race. But all arise with the freshness and vigor of eternal youth. ..." - http://text.egwwritings.org/publication.php?pubtype=Book&bookCode=GC&lang=en&pagenumber=644

    entering into the Millennium [the final 1,000 years] etc, etc...
     
  8. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Context, seen here - http://text.egwwritings.org/publica...ang=en&collection=2&section=all&pagenumber=22

    This vision relates not to 1843/Oct 22 1844, but to the expectation of a re-calculated time [1845; for no vision from God had been given yet to sister White], to which, the vision given to sister White from God ["When she received her first vision, Dec. 1844...", revealed the truth of the matter, that the 7th Month Movement [Samuel S., Snow, etc, ending Oct. 22 1844] was the correct ending of the time prophecies in Daniel, and therefore, there could only be disappointment for any human or angel who set any future times [such as the 7th month 1845] from it [Daniel 8:13-14,26, etc], as foretold in Revelation:

    And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: - Revelation 10:6

    Her "first" vision, confirmed 1843/1844 and disallowed any further dates [including the 7th month 1845, which had not yet come, they were still in 1844 December]. People are not without error, and this "first" vision, brought the 'many' to forsake the error of continually pressing for another date - "It was then that the Lord shew her in vision, the error into which she and the band in Portland had fallen. ..." Notice that it was the vision from God which corrected them and all who would listen since. It was the gift given her, that spared them all from erroneously setting future dates for the Daniel prophecy. However, futurists, are continually placing Daniel's time prophecy in the future... they are in error and need to come into harmony with God's word.

    People err, even Nathan had to be corrected, and as such the "word of the LORD" came to Nathan to go back and tell King David otherwise than that he had stated before. Even Peter needed correcting by Paul [whom both had visions from God], see Galatians 2:11, etc, etc.

    And Nathan said to the king, Go, do all that [is] in thine heart; for the LORD [is] with thee. - 2 Samuel 7:3

    Was that statement, from the LORD or from Nathan?

    And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying, - 2 Samuel 7:4

    Go and tell my servant David, Thus saith the LORD, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in? - 2 Samuel 7:5

    And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. - 2 Samuel 7:12

    He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. - 2 Samuel 7:13

    Yet, when God speaks, I would hope that none here would call it error.

    Firstly, the citation page is incorrect, as it is not page 57, but page 67 - http://text.egwwritings.org/publica...ang=en&collection=2&section=all&pagenumber=67

    Also the number "6" is not in the original quotation, but has been supplied, without the correct use of brackets, indicating, that it was supplied by whomever removed it from the context.

    "... But now time is almost finished, and what we have been years learning, they will have to learn in a few months. ..." [Page 67]​

    Notice, that the "we" is not "they", but are two groups.

    The "they" deals with the following group:

    "... They will also have much to unlearn and much to learn again. Those who would not receive the mark of the beast and his image when the decree goes forth, must have decision now to say, Nay, we will not regard the institution of the beast. ..." [page 67]​

    See also the previous context leading up to it, for the "they" are the last generation of peoples, not sister White herself or those with her in her day, notice:

    "The Lord has shown me repeatedly that it is contrary to the Bible to make any provision for our temporal wants in the time of trouble. I saw that if the saints had food laid up by them or in the field in the time of trouble, when sword, famine, and pestilence are in the land, it would be taken from them by violent hands and strangers would reap their fields. Then will be the time for us to trust wholly in God, and He will sustain us. ..." [Page 56]

    "... Then they will be free in the time of trouble and have no clogs to weigh them down. ..." [page 57]

    "... in the time of trouble it would come up before them ..." [page 57]

    "... for the time of trouble. Those only who have clean hands and pure hearts will stand in that trying time ..." [Page 58]​

    This is how even the Bible writers wrote, notice:

    Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. - 1 Thessalonians 4:17

    Like sister White, when Paul said "we", to whom was he referring to?

    This is always taken from the context, and also the language, which is taken from Scripture, is ignored. For this, I will need a lot more space, for this prophecy is in holding, and is yet to come to pass, and has not failed:

    For the vision [is] yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry. - Habakkuk 2:3

    I will briefly say, the "special resurrection" and a specific statement of the quotation and of Scripture are the keys to this prophecy. I will present it, in full, in a bit.
     
  9. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    This quotation again has the wrong page number, and also the entire Book citation is incorrect, as it comes from not Early Writings, page 256, but rather Testimonies for the Church, Volume 1, page 255 - http://text.egwwritings.org/publica...ng=en&collection=2&section=all&pagenumber=255

    Context:

    "In view of all this, they inquire: If we succeed in quelling this rebellion, what has been gained? They can only answer discouragingly: Nothing. That which caused the rebellion is not removed. The system of slavery, which has ruined our nation, is left to live and stir up another rebellion. The feelings of thousands of our soldiers are bitter. ..."​
    [TftC, Vol1, Page 255]

    Slavery was at the very heart of the rebellion. Check any good history sources. If it was not dealt with, even the "North" winning would not have solved anything, but would have simply quelled the immediate rebellion, but left room for future rebellion. It would be like chopping of a limb of a tree, but not dealing with the root, or dealing with a symptom, and not dealing with the underlying cause. That is what has been stated, clearly.

    She was not a prophet, nor received any visions until Dec 1844, which was a month after Oct. 22 1844 and after 1843. She never, by vision, predicted the coming of the LORD by a date after her "first" vision in Dec. 1844, which condemned all such things.

    "The above, relative to time-setting, was printed nearly thirty years ago, and the books have been circulated everywhere. Yet some ministers claiming to be well acquainted with me, make the statements that I have set time after time for the Lord to come and those times have passed, therefore my visions are false. These false statements no doubt are received by many as truth. Those who know me and are acquainted with my labors will make no such report in candor. This is the testimony I have borne ever since the passing of the time in 1844: ‘Time after time will be set by different ones which will pass by; and the influence of this time-setting will be to destroy the faith of God’s people.’ If I had seen in vision, and borne my testimony to definite time, I could not have written and published, in the face of this testimony, that all times that should be set would pass, for the time of trouble must come before the coming of Christ. Certainly for the last thirty years, that is, since the publication of this statement, I would not be inclined to set time for Christ to come, and thus place myself under the same condemnation with those whom I was reproving. I had no vision until 1845 which was after the passing of the time of general expectation in 1844. I was then shown that many would be deceived, and would set different times for the Lord to come, and urge them upon their brethren. But the Lord showed me that these times would pass; for the time of trouble must come before the coming of Christ; and that every time thus set and passed, would only weaken the faith of God’s people. Has not this testimony which has been before the public nearly thirty years in published form been fulfilled in every particular? The First-day Adventists have set time after time, and notwithstanding the repeated failures, they have gathered courage to set new times. God has not led them in this. Many of them have denounced the prophetic time, and the fulfillment of marked events in prophecy, because the time passed in 1844, and did not bring the expected event. They rejected the true prophetic time, and the enemy has had power to bring strong delusions upon them that they should believe a lie. I have borne the testimony since the passing of the time in 1844, that there should be no definite time set by which to test God’s people. The great test on time was in 1843 and 1844; and all who have set time since these great periods marked in prophecy were deceiving and being deceived. ..." - [ Life Sketches of James White and Ellen G. White 1880, p. 221.1] http://text.egwwritings.org/publica...ng=en&collection=2&section=all&pagenumber=221

    Frankly, when comparing the Truth of the matter as she wrote it, with others who cannot properly cite material [page numbers and or books], and take things out of their context, and do not reveal their addtions [number 6, etc], it is easily seen that those like Walter Rea, were the ones in error. In fact, see for yourself, in their many proven, documented, distortions - http://www.pearltrees.com/awhn/ellen-g-white/id1593382

    The so-called plagairism charge has been documentedly proven to be false, many years ago, see previous link and this - http://www.egwhiteclassicquotes.org/copying.htm
    http://www.ellenwhiteanswers.org/answers/plagiarism/

    etc...

    Rea, is proven to be the liar.

    Not so, by the same 'evidence' and there is much more in Scriptural demonstration.
     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The truth is that there have been NO Apostles/Prophets in the same sense as Inspired by the Lord to grant us further revelations and doctrines since Apostle John died...

    the false prophetess stated that God showed to her that the SDA was and is the true remnant church that God preserved during the Apostesy, same as Mormons and others claim, and the SDA does indeed teach a mixture of works and grace, and NOT the true Gospel of jesus...
     
  11. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Now, the "Food for Worms" vision.

    Let's get to the details, and read most prayerfully and carefully, shall we?

    "Food for Worms" Vision, shall indeed come to pass.

    For the vision [is] yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry. - Habakkuk 2:3

    This "food for worms" vision given to Ellen G. White in 1856 has had many people scratching their heads and some became embarrassed after a time {though shame upon them; 2 Chronicles 20:20} and others mocked after a certain time and many still do today {yet they mock at what they themselves do not know, neither understand, though if they will they may still have understanding if they turn not away the ear}, however, today the Scriptural answer, even confirmed by the SoP will be presented herein.

    The keys to understanding this vision are found in a Specific Condition of the Everlasting Gospel, specific Scriptural texts, and in the Special Resurrection itself.

    Lets take a look at these things shall we?

    {I shall leave the citation links included, that everyone may have free and direct access to the sources}

    Here are the "food for worms" vision quotations and similar references to this specific vision:

    Food for Worms:

    “... But we were yet to pass through another severe trial. At the conference a very solemn vision was given me. I saw that some of those present would be food for worms, some subjects for the seven last plagues, and some would be translated to heaven at the second coming of Christ, without seeing death. ...” - Ellen G. White; Spiritual Gifts Volume 2; Page 208 - http://text.egwwritings.org/publication.php?pubtype=Book&bookCode=2SG&lang=en&pagenumber=208

    “... I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said the angel, “Some food for worms, [Sister Clarissa M. Bonfoey, who fell asleep in Jesus only three days after this vision was given, was present, in usual health, and was deeply impressed that she was one that would go into the grave, and stated her convictions to others.] some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth, to be translated at the coming of Jesus.”

    Solemn words were these, spoken by the angel. I asked why so few were interested in their eternal interest, so few preparing for their last change. Said the angel, “Earth attracts them, its treasures seem of worth to them.” They find enough to engross the mind, and have no time to prepare for Heaven. Satan is ever ready to plunge them deeper and deeper into difficulty, and as one perplexity and trouble is off the mind he begets within them an unholy desire for more of the things of earth, and thus their time is gone, and when it is too late they see they have nothing substantial. They have grasped at shadows and lost eternal life. ...” - Ellen G. White; Spiritual Gifts Volume 4B; Page 18 - http://text.egwwritings.org/publication.php?pubtype=Book&bookCode=4bSG&lang=en&pagenumber=18

    “... “But we were yet to pass through another severe trial. At the Conference a very solemn vision was given me. I saw that some of those present would be food for worms, some subjects for the seven last plagues, and some would be translated to Heaven at the second coming of Christ, without seeing death. ...” - Ellen G. White; Life Sketches Of James And Ellen G. White 1888; Page 321 - http://text.egwwritings.org/publica...ng=en&collection=2&section=all&pagenumber=321

    “... I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said [Page 131-132] the angel: “Some food for worms, [Sister Clarissa M. Bonfoey, who fell asleep in Jesus only three days after this vision was given, was present in usual health, and was deeply impressed that she was one who would go into the grave, and stated her convictions to others.] some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus.”

    Solemn words were these, spoken by the angel. I asked the angel why so few were interested in their eternal welfare, so few preparing for their last change. Said he: “Earth attracts them, its treasures seem of worth to them.” They find enough to engross the mind, and have no time to prepare for heaven. Satan is ever ready to plunge them deeper and deeper into difficulty; as soon as one perplexity and trouble is off the mind, he begets within them an unholy desire for more of the things of earth; and thus their time passes, and, when it is too late, they see that they have gained nothing substantial. They have grasped at shadows and lost eternal life. Such will have no excuse. ...” - Ellen G. White; Testimonies For The Church Volume 1; Page 131-132; Chapter 23; Conformity To The World - http://text.egwwritings.org/publica...ng=en&collection=2&section=all&pagenumber=131

    “...I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said the angel: “Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus.”— Testimonies For The Church 1:31, 132 (1856). ...” - Ellen G. White; Last Day Events; Page 36 - http://text.egwwritings.org/publica...ang=en&collection=2&section=all&pagenumber=36

    “... I was shown the company present at the conference. Said the angel: “Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus.” Solemn words were these, spoken by the angel.—Ibid., 1:131, 132. ...” - Arthur L. White; Ellen G. White Volume 1 – The Early Years: 1827-1862; Page 339 - http://text.egwwritings.org/publication.php?pubtype=Book&bookCode=1BIO&pagenumber=339

    If everyone would like to notice that there are two basic written accounts,

    [1] the vision where the Angel's words are recounted as directly spoken ["Said the angel...", etc], and

    [2] the basic explanation of the vision by Ellen G. White using her own words ["I saw..."] {rather than a direct quotation of the Angel of her vision}, derived from Scripture, of the same events.​

    Let's consider these in their details.
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Here "in real life" I show "from scripture" how it is that the body is associated with the person.


    That does not appear to be true "in real life".


    As already stated -- in Matt 10 it appears to be the soul.
    Matt 10:28
    28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    In Eccl 12 - the spirit

    Eccl 12:7
    7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

    In John 11 "our FRIEND Lazarus SLEEPs" -- and yet his body is dead.

    How many times must the question be answered to satisfy your intent??

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    My signature line deals with the sort of nonsense we find in the post above.

    'nuff said.

    1 Thess 4
    17 Then WE WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

    Paul does not say "THOSE who will be alive at that time and remain will be caught up together with all of US who will have fallen asleep in Jesus by that time"

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #133 BobRyan, May 3, 2015
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  14. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Let us now consider the 2 basic relations of the vision itself.

    [1] There is a very specific "Conference" {gathering of Official body of Adventists [not yet so outwardly designated as Seventh-day Adventists officially, 1863/4] for those who do not know} to which the vision refers.

    This was not and cannot refer to any future "Conference", but only to that specific one, in that specific year, with those specific peoples, since the vision is definitive upon this point [underline and bold added by myself]:

    "... At the conference a very solemn vision was given me. I saw that some of those present would be ..."

    "... I was shown the company present at the Conference …"​

    This "Conference" was the Conference held in 1856, as noted by the Ellen G. White Estate [Link to Ellen G. White Estate "food for worms" article] and also in Spiritual Gifts Volume 2; Page 207 - http://text.egwwritings.org/publication.php?pubtype=Book&bookCode=2SG&lang=en&pagenumber=207

    "... A conference was held at Battle Creek in May, 1856. ..." - Spiritual Gifts, vol. 2, Page 207- http://text.egwwritings.org/publication.php?pubtype=Book&bookCode=2SG&lang=en&pagenumber=207

    [2] There are 3 groups pointed out at that Conference in the vision itself, and in the retelling of it:

    Group 1 -

    {A1} Angel of the vision says, "... Some food for worms ..." and
    {A2} Ellen G White recounts later, "... I saw that some of those present would be food for worms ..."

    Group 2 -

    {B1} Angel of the vision says, "... some subjects of the seven last plagues ..." and
    {B2} Ellen G White recounts later, "... some subjects for the seven last plagues ..."

    Group 3 -

    {C1} Angel of the vision says, "... some will be alive and remain upon the earth, to be translated at the coming of Jesus. ..." and
    {C2} Ellen G White recounts later, "... and some would be translated to heaven at the second coming of Christ, without seeing death. …"

    [3] Both the Angel and the Messenger of the Lord, Ellen G White, are in agreement about these things and these 3 groups and are not in disharmony at any point and we shall consider each of those three groups in a bit, along with a specific phrase therein.

    Moving onto the condition briefly, we shall consider that the coming of the LORD, the 2nd Advent, is immanent, but even though God knows the exact time in which He has allotted and set for mercy and then Judgment, the coming may happen faster than the allotted time by God, as it may be affected by the people of God, and thus there is a condition in which the vision could have been fulfilled sooner, rather than later as it now shall be. Two verses for the moment:

    Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 2 Peter 3:12

    And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Matthew 24:14

    Therefore, the vision is simply tarrying and will come to pass as it is written, and not failed {this will be demonstrated in a post to come, utilizing the Special Resurrection itself and a comparison of statements from the vision to the Scripture itself} -

    For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry. Habakkuk 2:3

    The question immediately arises, "How can the vision of a specific 1856 Conference of Adventists, and the specific people therein, that both the vision and angel references, tarry past all their going to their graves? Isn't it plain that Ellen G. White is in her grave and those that were at the Conference {though, I am only aware of speculative lists which exist put together by certain members present as to exact numbers/persons} are all long since laid in their graves?"

    Before we answer these very serious questions, we need to declare, without obfuscation, that "Yes, all who were present {whomever they all were exactly, as I am not aware of anyone that knew fully, though there was some general idea, several lists existing of that possible makeup} at that 1856 Conference specified by/in the vision are all laid in their graves. There are none of them that are presently breathing with us today."

    However, instead of asking as Peter, "...which is he that betrayeth thee?" and "...Lord, and what shall this man do?"

    We ought to receive the answer Jesus gave to Peter:

    Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. John 21:22

    Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? John 21:23

    Therefore, like the disciples before, there has been an ongoing misunderstanding about how the fulfillment of this "food for worms" prophecy was to take place, especially of those that it was stated,

    As the Angel of the vision said, "...some will be alive and remain upon the earth, to be translated at the coming of Jesus. ..."

    or

    As Ellen G. White later recounted, "...some would be translated to heaven at the second coming of Christ, without seeing death."

    or

    as some, hurriedly [and incorrectly] assume, that the vision is truly false or failed. But listen again to the words of John, gone before, and so like him, let us apply also in like manner, for the Testimony of Jesus, given through sister White, is Tested, Tried and True:

    This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true. John 21:24
     
    #134 One Baptism, May 3, 2015
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  15. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    The prophecy of Jesus is true, and the prophecy given to Ellen G White is also true.

    How is the prophecy given to Ellen. G. White true though if they of that 1856 Conference are all laid in their graves, for Ellen G. White specifically says, "...some would be translated to heaven at the second coming of Christ, without seeing death."?

    It says clearly, "...without seeing death." and they are all dead, laid in their graves. Therefore it failed, didn't it?

    No, the vision has not failed, not at all, and is very true, for it is simply tarrying in fulfillment and is yet to be fulfilled in the very near future.

    The misunderstanding is in the very nature and definition of the words, "...without seeing death." and what that means Scripturally.

    The key to the answer of this whole vision is not only found in the Special Resurrection, but in the way in which Seventh-day Adventist have the proper understanding in regards to the state of the dead as it is written in Scripture.

    For instance, What do Seventh-day Adventists know in regards to those who have gone to their graves? Are they truly dead, or are they merely sleeping until they are awakened again?

    They are simply asleep, and have not seen the death as described in the prophecy {and the death referred to will include two things, [1] a primary, and [2] a secondary application in addition to [1]}.

    Allow me to demonstrate this.

    Jesus Himself stated of Lazarus, whom he loved, or to the little girl of Jairus, &c as not being dead, in the second death, but merely asleep:

    [Little Girl]

    While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live. Matthew 9:18

    He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn. Matthew 9:24

    But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose. Matthew 9:25

    *******

    While he yet spake, there came from the ruler of the synagogue's [house certain] which said, Thy daughter is dead: why troublest thou the Master any further? Mark 5:35

    And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth. Mark 5:39

    And they laughed him to scorn. But when he had put them all out, he taketh the father and the mother of the damsel, and them that were with him, and entereth in where the damsel was lying. Mark 5:40

    And he took the damsel by the hand, and said unto her, Talitha cumi; which is, being interpreted, Damsel, I say unto thee, arise. Mark 5:41

    *******

    While he yet spake, there cometh one from the ruler of the synagogue's [house], saying to him, Thy daughter is dead; trouble not the Master. Luke 8:49

    And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth. Luke 8:52

    And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead. Luke 8:53

    And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise. Luke 8:54

    Do we believe Jesus, or shall we also laugh Him to scorn for saying such?

    [Lazarus]

    These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. John 11:11

    Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. John 11:13

    Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. John 11:14

    Then when Jesus came, he found that he had [lain] in the grave four days already. John 11:17

    Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. John 11:21

    Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. John 11:23

    Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. John 11:24

    Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: John 11:25

    Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. John 11:32

    And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died? John 11:37

    Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it. John 11:38

    Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been [dead] four days. John 11:39

    Then they took away the stone [from the place] where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up [his] eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. John 11:41

    And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. John 11:43

    And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go. John 11:44

    This is given all throughout the Scriptures:

    [sleep, asleep, sleepeth] Deuteronomy 31:16; 2 Samuel 7:12; Job 3:13, 7:21, 14:12; 1 Kings 1:21, 2:10, 11:21,43, 14:20,31, 15:8,24, 16:6,28, 22:40,50; 2 Kings 8:24, 10:35, 13:9,13, 14:16,22,29, 15:7,22,38, 16:20, 20:21, 21:18, 24:6; 2 Chronicles 9:31, 12:16, 14:1, 16:13, 21:1, 26:2,23, 27:9, 28:27, 32:33, 33:20; Job 14:12; Psalms 13:3; Matthew 27:52; John 11:11-13; Acts 7:60, 13:36; 1 Corinthians 15:6,18,20,51; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15; 2 Peter 3:4; [awake] Job 14:12; Psalms 17:15; Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2; John 11:11-13; [grave/bed] Job 17:13; Psalms 139:8; Luke 17:34; [fathers and prophets are dead] John 6:49,58, 8:52,53; Acts 2:29,34, 13:36; Hebrews 11:4,13,16,40, etc, etc.​

    Therefore, knowing this to be the case, those that have been laid into their graves, even especially those whom Jesus loved, are not actually Dead {2nd Death}, but simply sleeping, in Christ Jesus, until their respective resurrections!

    Let us now turn our attention to this specific phrase, "...without seeing death." and see what the Scripture has to say, and if there are any Biblical examples of a group of people that were laid in their graves, but like as the vision is declaring {as we will see shortly}, truly did not see death, but merely sleep and were awakened and given immortality and translated and taken back to Heaven with Jesus.
     
  16. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Such [1] a group exists in Scripture, and even [2] a specific example of a single person also.

    [1] The selected martyrs {some around Jerusalem} raised at Christ's own resurrection {Mattew 27:51-52}

    [2] Moses {Matthew 16:28 - Matthew 17:1-13; Mark 9:1-13; Luke 9:27-37; Romans 5:4; Jude 1:9; 2 Peter 1:1-21}​

    whom both represent part of that final group {1 Peter 1:11-21} we are speaking about in this prophetic vision given to Ellen G. White.

    There are two things in regards to this "death" that some of them of 1856 Conference in the vision would "not see", is:

    [1] The Second Death, annihilation:

    He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. Revelation 2:1

    Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Revelation 20:6

    And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Revelation 20:14

    But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8

    For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. Malachi 4:1

    &c

    [sin/sinners gone forever, cut off, perished, no more, destroyed, passed away, etc] Job 20:26,29, 31:2-3; Psalms 7:9, 9:17, 11:6, 21:9, 37:10, 37:20, 37:28,38, 68:2, 69:28, 75:8,10, 92:7,9, 104:35, 106:18, 112:10, 145:20; Proverbs 2:22, 10:25,28,30, 12:7, 13:9, 14:11, 24:20; Ezekiel 18:4, 18:20; Isaiah 13:9, 25:8, 66:17,24; Nahum 1:10; Obadiah 1:16; Zephaniah 1:2-3; Malachi 4:1; Matthew 10:28; John 3:16; Romans 6:23; Hebrews 6:8; James 1:15; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 7:17, 20:9, 21:4

    John 3:16 says Perish or Everlasting Life {the wicked receive no such gift as everlasting life [there are no immortalized wicked anywhere and never will be], it is only a gift to the saved/just/righteous}.​

    [2] The martyrdom through the death decree that goes forward at the end:

    But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. Daniel 11:44

    And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Revelation 6:11

    And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Revelation 20:4

    Also he gave him the copy of the writing of the decree that was given at Shushan to destroy them, to shew it unto Esther, and to declare it unto her, and to charge her that she should go in unto the king, to make supplication unto him, and to make request before him for her people. Esther 4:8

    But the Egyptians pursued after them, all the horses and chariots of Pharaoh, and his horsemen, and his army, and overtook them encamping by the sea, beside Pihahiroth, before Baalzephon. Exodus 14:9

    &c​
     
    #136 One Baptism, May 3, 2015
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  17. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Ok, now let us consider the words "...without seeing death." more closely.

    Does it mean that a person will not be laid in the grave at all, or can it mean two things?:

    [1] never to be laid in the grave at all, never seeing/tasting the sleep of the first death, neither the second death.

    [2] laid in the grave temporarily, in the state of first death, called "sleep" in Scripture, to be awakened at a later time and not see/taste the second death.​

    In the first [1] instance, we have but to consider the lives of Enoch and Elijah from the Scriptures to see that these two never were laid in the grave, never seeing the sleep, but were directly taken to Heaven "without seeing death", never martyred, and and also will never see the second death:

    Enoch:

    And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. Genesis 5:24

    By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. Hebrews 11:5

    Elijah:

    And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. 2 Kings 2:1

    And the sons of the prophets that were at Bethel came forth to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he said, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace. 2 Kings 2:3

    And the sons of the prophets that were at Jericho came to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he answered, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace. 2 Kings 2:5

    And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me. 2 Kings 2:9

    And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so. 2 Kings 2:10

    And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. 2 Kings 2:11

    And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces. 2 Kings 2:12

    In the second [2] instance we have several examples of those which have been laid into the grave, "fell on sleep" {Acts 13:36}, and were yet awakened before the second Advent.

    {A} Most of whom fell on sleep again, and laid back into the grave temporarily, to be later again awoken at the 2nd advent of Jesus and

    {B} some or few who fell on sleep, but were awoken before the 2nd Advent of Jesus and were taken to heaven:​

    The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up. 1 Samuel 2:6

    I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Matthew 22:32

    &c.

    {A} Those whom "fell on sleep", but were temporarily awakened to only fall on sleep again, to be permanently awoken at the 2nd Advent of Jesus:

    Elijah raises the Widow of Zarephath's son [1 Kings 17:17-24];

    Elijah raises the son of the Shunamite Woman [2 Kings 4:18-37];

    A man and Elisha's Bones [2 Kings 13:20-21];

    The Valley of Bones, the Resurrected Army [Ezekiel 37:1-14];

    Jesus raises the Widow of Nain's Son [Luke 7:11-17];

    Jesus raises Jairus's Daughter [Matthew 9:18,19,23-26; Mark 5:22-24,35-43; Luke 8:41-42,49-56];

    Jesus raises Lazarus [John 11:1-47];

    Peter raises Tabitha [Dorcas] [Acts 9:36-42];

    Paul raises Eutychus [Acts 20:9-12];​

    {B} Those whom "fell on sleep", but were awoken permanently and taken to Heaven before the 2nd Advent of Jesus:

    Moses [Matthew 17; Mark 9; Luke 9; 2 Peter 1:16; Romans 5:14; Jude 1:9]

    Select Group of Martyrs around the locality of Jerusalem [Psalms 68:18; Isaiah 26:19; Matthew 27:52,53; Ephesians 4:8]

    Jesus' Resurrection [Matthew 28:1-20; Mark 16:1-20; Luke 24:1-53; John 20:1-31; 1 Corinthians 15:20,23 &c]​

    The Mount of Transfiguration {Matthew 17; Mark 9; Luke 9} and Peters words {2 Peter 1:10-21} declare for those groups [1] and [2b], that we shall see at the end, both witnessing the 2nd Coming of Jesus in Power and Glory:

    For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Matthew 16:27

    Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Matthew 16:28

    And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. Mark 9:1

    For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels. Luke 9:26

    But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. Luke 9:27

    *******

    Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 2 Peter 1:10

    For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:11

    Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know [them], and be established in the present truth. 2 Peter 1:12

    Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting [you] in remembrance; 2 Peter 1:13

    Knowing that shortly I must put off [this] my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me. 2 Peter 1:14

    Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance. 2 Peter 1:15

    For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 2 Peter 1:16

    For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 2 Peter 1:17

    And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 2 Peter 1:18

    We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 2 Peter 1:19

    Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 2 Peter 1:20

    For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost. 2 Peter 1:21
     
  18. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    Now, let us look at some more passages which will help us in understanding what Jesus and the Angel meant by "...without seeing death.", and then consider the vision again, in this light, along with the Special Resurrection and see how the vision is for a time yet future, and simply tarries, and see how all three groups, mentioned before will be found therein.

    Now, looking at the phrase, "...without seeing death.", what does Jesus say in regards to this?

    Jesus said some very interesting things in relation to this phrase.

    In fact, Jesus said something to His Disciples {referencing, Peter, James and John), which was almost exactly the same as to what the Angel said in the Vision given to Ellen G. White {I refer back to Group 3}:

    Group 3 -

    {C1} Angel of the vision says, "... some will be alive and remain upon the earth, to be translated at the coming of Jesus. ..."

    {C2} and Ellen G White recounts later, "... and some would be translated to heaven at the second coming of Christ, without seeing death. ..."

    Notice the similarity:

    Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Matthew 16:28

    And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. Mark 9:1

    But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. Luke 9:27

    Well, Jesus obviously told the truth and even stated as such, clearly.

    Who will then fault the Angel that spake to Ellen G. White?

    For those which deny the words, are denying the true words of witness of someone much higher than she.

    Jesus also said elsewhere,

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:24

    *******

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. John 8:51

    Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. John 8:52

    *******

    When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby. John 11:24

    Even Paul, and others said:

    Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us; 2 Corinthians 1:10

    But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: 2 Titus 1:10

    But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. Hebrews 2:9

    By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. Hebrews 11:5

    James:

    Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. James 5:20

    John:

    We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. 1 John 3:4

    If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 1 John 5:16 {this speaks of the difference between every sin which may be forgiven if confessed, forsaken and repented of, and the one sin of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, refusing to turn, which is unto death}

    He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. Revelation 2:11

    Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Revelation 20:6

    We could even see how such a passage in Luke as the following is similar, for though it refers to the First Advent, there are those Holy ones that will be alive to see the Second Advent and not see death:

    And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. Luke 2:26

    A passage found in the OT, asks a very interesting question, and we find the answer in scripture there is none who of themselves can deliver, but Christ Jesus can so deliver:

    What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah. Psalms 89:48

    Therefore, we see, as Jesus and others have said, the Christian does not actually see death, which is the 2nd death, but merely falls into sleep, to be awakened at a later time.

    So we see that the faithful ones, that continued to abide in Jesus and believe unto the end, have passed from death {being the second death} unto life {being eternal life}.
     
  19. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

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    All those in the 1856 Conference have all gone to their graves, but for some, as stated in the vision, will not see death [the Second Death], but will be alive {awakened unto life, from their sleep in the grave}, to see Jesus coming in the clouds.

    This means that they must be alive before the moment of His coming in order to see Him coming, and therefore, these special ones, will be awakened from their slumber, to be alive with those that were already alive at the last moments of this present earth's history {1 Thessalonians 5:17}.

    This happens in the Special Resurrection {Daniel 12:2,12; Matthew 26:64; Mark 14:62; Revelation 1:7, 14:13 &c}, but they are not yet given immortality until Jesus is in the air above the earth.

    For those in the First Great Resurrection do not awake until Jesus is already here above the earth, sounding the Trumpet in 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

    Therefore:

    Group 1 - "food for worms", shall be those that will perish, not being found in Christ Jesus, even to be raised in the second great resurrection, and shall appear with satan, and all his hosts on the desolate earth, the wilderness of owls {unclean bird of the night, fallen angels} and dragons {satan}:

    Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Mark 9:44,46,48

    I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister. Job 17:14

    They shall lie down alike in the dust, and the worms shall cover them. Job 21:26

    The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him; he shall be no more remembered; and wickedness shall be broken as a tree. Job 24:20

    Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. Isaiah 14:11

    For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation. Isaiah 51:8

    And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. Isaiah 66:24

    {{second great} resurrection {of the wicked, unjust, damnation, at the end/close of the 1000 years, when Christ Jesus and all of the Saints {then immortal} descend to Earth in New Jerusalem upon the Mount of Olives, and the Great White Throne Judgment takes place; Zechariah 14; Revelation 20}} John 5:29b; Acts 17:31, 24:15b; Revelation 20:5a

    {resurrection of unjust/damnation takes place on earth} Revelation 20:5,7-15​

    Group 2 - "subject of the seven last plagues", shall be those unfaithful wicked that were not only not found in Christ Jesus, but which purposefully, directly, vehemently and most violently opposed Him, whether warring openly or secretly, persecuting Him {Acts 9:4-5, 22:7-8, 26:14-15; 1 Timothy 1:13; 1 Peter 4:18} in His prophets/Messengers and His Jerusalem {His people}, whether in word or in deed, shall be specially raised {Daniel 12:2 &c} suffering not only the last plagues, but destruction, and to be raised again even in the final 2nd resurrection also:

    And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:2

    Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Matthew 26:64

    And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Mark 14:62

    Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7

    Group 3 - "will be alive and remain upon the earth, to be translated at the coming of Jesus ... without seeing death.", will be those special ones that were faithful, and sealed by God, living under the power of the Three Angels Messages {Revelation 14:6-12, 18:1-24}, and these which have been laid in their grave, having "fallen on sleep" will be specially raised to see Jesus come, and shall not see the second death, nor be martyred of the last death decree:

    And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:2

    Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. Daniel 12:12

    And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. Revelation 14:13

    Therefore, the Special Resurrection is the Key, the phrase "...without seeing death" now understood, and the condition that the vision could have happened sooner, rather than later, and we thus have the answer to this vision, clear from the Scriptures, confirmed by the Spirit of Prophecy, which is the Testimony of Jesus [Revelation 19:10, etc; not sister White, she is just the messenger].

    See the final sequences outlined -


    Therefore, as it is written, as to the vision given to Ellen G. White concerning the 1856 Conference members, it is said:

    For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry. Habakkuk 2:3

    I hope that this has clarified a few things about this particular vision, and its soon fulfillment, and that we no longer need to rely upon an older answer {though admirable as it was, and honest}, which does not fully satisfy the context in which the vision was given, but let us now turn to the greater light which is now shining.

    "...Hear me, O Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem; Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper." 2 Chronicles 20:20
     
  20. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    Good.
    So what happens to the soul at death?
     
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