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Why I am not a Calvinist.. the ACTUAL topic of this thread

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by BobRyan, Mar 1, 2018.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Interesting that you make the Arminian case to be so obvious and blatant as we find it in the text.. that even Calvinist scholars are forced to admit to the irrefutable details.

    That level of objectivity not easy to find among Calvinists whose primary solution of choice is to demean or belittle the one posting an opposing view.
     
  2. James Donovan

    James Donovan Member

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    The late RC Sproul said you hold all 5 points or none. Ok. None
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Some would argue "yes" -- because God does not have the power to enable choice for the lost - without first causing them to be born-again saints.

    Rom 10
    9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
     
  4. James Donovan

    James Donovan Member

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    RC Sproul said a Calvinist hold all 5 points or none. Ok. None. What frightens me is the acceptance by young men. I think young men like a system, set up and ready to go. Calvinism is that system. It requires understanding of the system but not the Scriptures
     
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  5. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    I have not responded to your Greek, because it does NOT make any difference in what I am saying, nor does it change the fact, in context, both passages in 1 John "the whole world" can only refer to the "entire human race" outside of Jesus Christ. The OUR and WE refer to ALL believers, which means that the WHOLE of mankind is included. We can both find quotes from "scholars", like you did with IHM, and myself with JFB and ATR, to support what we believe. The fact of the matter is clear, that the Bible teaches that it is God's desire to save the entire human race, and has made provision for this in the Death/Atonement of Jesus Christ, conditioned on the sinners REPENTING and BELIEVING, as Jesus Himself says in Mark 1:15, and elsewhere. It is "Reformed" theology that has changed the terms of how a sinner is saved. BTW, there is no point in bring childish in questioning my knowledge of Greek.
     
  6. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    I agree. It is really sad that they try to question whether you know Greek or can use the English language, etc, because they cannot deal honestly with what the Bible says, but must push their own theology!
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    As an Arminian I find myself to also be a 2 point Calvinist.

    1. Total depravity (all have a sinful nature, and need God to "Draw all mankind" to Himself - John 12:32 - supernaturally which is what He does. That "drawing of all mankind" enables the free will choice "for all mankind" that depravity would have disabled without it)

    2. Perseverance of the saints - only those who persevere firm to the end -- will be saved in the end
     
  8. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    Calvinists are cunning in the way they deal with the Bible, like the way the KJV, with its Calvinistic bias, abused the Greek text at Acts 2:47, to promote their "theology", rather than let the Bible say exactly what it does. then sadly there are some on here, who think they know it all, who will still defend the KJV on this verse, even though the Greek is against it!
     
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  9. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    You are, again, making the claim... and assuming it without proving it. Quoting your "scholars" doesn't say why it has to be as you say.

    You've already demonstrated that you won't accept a scholar who does not agree with your theology. And, at the same time, you disallow your opponents to quote scholars who agree with theirs.

    This is a different question than the one at hand. Perhaps this is your presupposition which is requiring you to see 1 John 2:2 as "Everyone without exception."

    That's funny. This was preached by Paul, discussed by Augustine, and recovered by the Reformers.

    :Rolleyes

    The Archangel
     
  10. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Oh... enlighten us, please.

    The Archangel
     
  11. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    Here is John Calvin himself on John 3:16, who was not a "Calvinist"!

    "That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life."

    Note what this man, who is claimed by those who call themselves "5 Point Calvinists", says about who the Lord Jesus Christ died to save. Also note the terms, "THE WHOLE WORLD" (as we have been discussing for 1 John), and "ALL MEN WITHOUT EXCEPTION", a term that is not Calvinistic in any way.

    Also, on Colossians 1:14

    "that our sins are not imputed to us. He says that this redemption was procured through the blood of Christ, for by the sacrifice of his death all the sins of the world have been expiated"

    Mark 14:24

    "Which is shed for many. By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race"
     
    #131 Saved-By-Grace, Mar 5, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
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  12. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    αἰνοῦντες τὸν θεὸν καὶ ἔχοντες χάριν πρὸς ὅλον τὸν λαόν. ὁ δὲ κύριος προσετίθει τοὺς σωζομένους καθ̕ ἡμέραν ἐπὶ τὸ αὐτό
     
  13. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    I agree their version of God is pretty weak
     
  14. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Simply quoting the text in Greek (or English) doesn't prove your assertion that there is some bias in this verse. I'm curious to know why you think it is so, what the bias is, and what the Greek says in opposition to the KJV or any other translation.

    The Archangel
     
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The Father gave all who were to get saved to His Son, and jesus called them and choose them, as they were lost sheep straying away from God until than!
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    So Isaiah and Paul were both wrong in this?
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The only reason Arminians win any debate would be due to them first setting up a salvation method contrary to shown in Bible, and then agreeing with that model!
     
  18. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    You seem to be laboring under a false premise. I, for one, am not sitting in a darkened room, reading The Institutes by candlelight, and praying to Calvin. I have a copy of The Institutes, but I have never read them in any more than an incidental way. I'll look up quotes, etc., but I would rather spend my time reading the Bible than Calvin.

    I call myself a "Calvinist" because that label--for better or worse--describes the soteriological position I hold. Before Calvin there was Augustine and before Augustine there was Paul. I spend my time studying the arguments of Paul, since he--and not Calvin or Augustine--was an inspired author. I also study the other books of the Bible, other than Paul, that is.

    So, I could give a rip what Calvin thinks on any given passage.

    The Archangel
     
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  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Many Non Calvinist seem to labor under the impression that we all have our bibles having just in them the commentaries of Calvin, and that we all saw him as being inspired also!
     
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  20. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    There I thought you could translate it?

    KJV: " Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved."

    Actual Translation: "Praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as were being saved"
     
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