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Why I am not a Calvinist.. the ACTUAL topic of this thread

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by BobRyan, Mar 1, 2018.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Why not be Calvinist?

    One good reason is the following "Calvinism does not survive the test of scripture."
    ================================================


    John 1:11 “He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him NOT


    "God so loved the WORLD
    that HE gave" John 3:16.

    "God is not WILLING that ANY should perish" 2Peter 3.

    God knew Judas would fail - and yet he washed his feet.

    God knew His own would reject Him - and yet He came to them and yet he weeps over them in places like Matt 23. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem.. how I wanted to save your children...but YOU would not"


    Matt 23
    37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
    38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

    Hosea 11
    :7 So My people are bent on turning from Me.
    Though they call them to the One on high,
    None at all exalts Him.
    8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?
    How can I surrender you, O Israel?
    How can I make you like Admah?
    How can I treat you like Zeboiim?
    My heart is turned over within Me,
    All My compassions are kindled.

    Ezek 18
    30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
    31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
    32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!"

    "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:11

    2Cor 5
    18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
    19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
    20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
     
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  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    This thread is "actually" on the topic 'Why I am not a Calvinist" --

    As compared to "another" thread where the author of the thread argues that the TITLE is not what the thread is about -- when confronted with texts explaining why Arminians choose not to be Calvinists.

     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    " 'All' is far more a problem for Arminians because they require it to mean 'every single one' and they find that they have suddenly come universalists."

    Not true at all .. the whole point of the Arminian position is that ALL sinned, and ALL are loved .. ALL may benefit from the atoning sacrifice "for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD". That is not universalism... that is Arminianism. A not so subtle difference.

    "The meaning of 'all,' like the meaning of most words, has to be determined by context." It is used in the same sentence.. just when Calvinists need it to be "really ALL" in one part of the sentence "and arbitrary selection ALL" in the next. A rather self-serving rule for defining the term at best.

    Romans 11:32, "For God hath shut up ALL unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon ALL."

    ALL sinned.
    So ALL need mercy
     
  4. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    The best reason to not be a Calvinist is to be a follower of a brain damaged woman who started a cult. Well, that's my opinion, anyway.
     
  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    What do you mean...brain damaged;
    Angels need a gold card to get in and out of heaven: There is perfect order and harmony in the Holy City. All the angels that are commissioned to visit the earth hold a golden card, which they present to the angels at the gates of the city as they pass in and out. —Early Writings (1882), page 39. (Do angels really need a gold ID card to get in and out of heaven? Can evil angels deceive the loyal angels to get into heaven? Why did God withhold this important piece of information from Christians for over 2000 years?):Cautious

    At least she was NOT A CALVINIST....
    Piano tuners deal with insanity: In many cases I have advised out-of-door work for piano tuners, telling them that unless they changed their business, they would have to deal with insanity. —Letter 104, 1901. I wonder how many piano tuners tried to tune pianos out-of-doors in the winter so they would not go insane? Really! Perhaps wearing gloves would help keep them from going insane! How many piano tuners have gone insane?
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Ok so that is a lot of "Bible texts"..

    No what would a Calvinist do .. confronted with irrefutable scripture debunking Calvinism??

    rehash tactic from the dark ages...

    As for those Christians that actually value scripture -- welcome!

    ( I LOVE this thread... )
     
  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    "BobRyan

    Not all are going to get Mercy....
    15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

    16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

    All of those elected by God...sinned in Adam....most sinned by their own experience also....all of the elect receive Mercy IN CHRIST...
    This is why many are Calvinists.
     
  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    "BobRyan,

    God has to allow someone to see it...

    Oh...but it surely does.....
    26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

    28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

    29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

    30 I and my Father are one.



    2tim1
    9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,


    eph1
    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

    4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    jn6
    37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

    39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

    40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

    42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

    43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

    44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
     
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    [QUOTE="BobRyan,

    ?

    ask God to have mercy on you...and you can see it all over scripture...watch

    Every single person Peter spoke of here is going to be saved...not one will be lost.....two words are used for the word will.....boulemai means God has decreeed destined and purposed to save them...His long suffering leads to the salvation of all elected persons....
    14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

    15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

    16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

    People pervert the doctrines of grace as offered by Paul...
     
  10. anerlogios

    anerlogios Member
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    This should be interesting since I’ve seen Arminians unable to refute the proof texts of Calvinists.
     
  11. anerlogios

    anerlogios Member
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    I’m not saying I disagree (or agree), but most theologians and even some bible translations have understood “his own” in John 1:11 as his own people. Are taking his own to mean the elect (as Calvinists like to call it)? If not how would this even be a verse that need to be refuted by Calvinists?

    Also in John 3:16, if it is to mean God intended to save the world, did Jesus fail? Or if you’re taking John 3:16 to mean God want to make salvation available for the world, why would God’s love stop short of guaranteeing that for the whole world?
     
  12. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    What amazes me is that people suppose that those who believe in Free Grace have never read these texts and suppose that we think, "Oh golly! Is that in the Bible? I'd better change my view!" Believe it or not, it was reading the Bible that persuaded us of the truth of the Five Points.

    However, let's have a look at the first text quoted (I make no promise that I'm going to trawl through them all. I have a life outside this forum).
    As usual, the context will help.
    John 1:11-13. 'He came to His own [neuter plural: His own things or domain], and His own [masculine plural: His own people, His Jewish countrymen] did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believed in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.'

    First of all, we note that 'His own did not receive Him' cannot be taken absolutely, since some did receive Him (c.f. Romans 11:1-6). Next, there are three things that we are told about those who received Him:
    1. They received the right to become children of God.
    2. They believed in the name (the reality, the power, the authority) of the Lord Jesus Christ.
    3. They had been born
    'Not of blood.' Having a Christian as a parent does not make one a Christian.
    'Nor of the will of the flesh.' One's own fallen will cannot make one a Christian.
    'Nor of the will of man'. It is not in the exhortation of the preacher, nor the ministrations of the social worker, nor the power of the evangelist that makes one a Christian.
    'But of God.' The New Birth comes from God the Holy Spirit and from Him alone (John 3:6).

    Thank you for drawing our attention to that wonderful proof of Calvinism. :)


     
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  13. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    "His own" meaning the Jews.

    Nothing in John 3:16 suggests that God intended that absolutely everyone would get saved.
     
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  14. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    I believe God loves you and your children.


    Some might call me a fool for presuming God loves your children, Some might even mock me.

    I pity those same folks for ever doubting God does.
     
  15. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    1 John 5

    10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.


    The man who makes God a Liar is who? The one who doesn't believe the testimony-> that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

    A Calvinist would have to declare that man as being 100% HONEST, that indeed the son never died for him.

    Its like the NON-BELIEVER wants to be a Calvinist.


    The Christian instead says you are making God a LIAR, because his son did die for you.
     
  16. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    "His own" means the Jews. John 3:16 points to the universal aspect of God's act of sending His Son (God loved the world in this way: He sent His only Son that whosoever believes would have everlasting life).
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    It is argued that God makes sovereign choices .. choosing "His own" -- and John 1:11 is a perfect example of it. IT is God's sovereign choice to select the family of Abraham... such that Christ can say in John 4 "Salvation is of the Jews"... but then "His OWN received Him not" John 1:11
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him NOT" John 1:11

    "Salvation is of the Jews" John 4.

    Both point to the sovereign action of God... both allow free will.

    God sovereignly selected the Jews as evangelists. "He came to them"..

    Matthew 23
    37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

    At first i thought you were trying to defend the Calvinist position.


    Very different from "to as many as He zaaaapped to choose as He dictated".

    So then we have two very different models .. one is actually in the Bible.

    The other is merely much-imagined via extreme inference.



    First we notice that selecting them as "His own" was His sovereign choice.. not theirs. They did not "choose themselves" as "the chosen people" then argue God into going along with it.

    So then with a great deal of creativity you can look at this and conclude

    What amazes me - is that if Calvinists can re-imagine this list of texts in their favor - then why do they complain so much to see them posted?
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The elephant in the Calvinist living room then is the fact that we are talking about God's own sovereign choice in not only "coming to them" but also "choosing them" as "His own" ... They did not argue God into choosing them. And even Christ could say in John 4 "Salvation is of the Jews" -- not because the Jews had argued God into that -- but because this is what God had sovereignly chosen.

    This is the perfect example of the sovereign choice of God and the free will reaction of some among "His own".

    If there were no free will - then John 3:16 points to the failure of Christ. another dead-end for Calvinism.
    IF there IS free will then 1 John 4:14 "God sent His Son to be the Savior of the World" and John 3:16 "God so Loved the World" are perfectly fine as applying to all the world -- all of humanity.

    It could only be failure on God's part - if there were no free will.

    Were we simply "not supposed to notice"

    "God is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" 2 Peter 3

    If I say "I dropped the coins in my pocket on the floor - now I will gather all back into my pocket for it is my will that all be gathered back into my pocket" -- and after making an effort I miss a few -- then I failed.

    But if I say "it is my will that all my children make A's in school and are successful" and one of them makes less than "A".. it cannot be said "Because I WILLED them to make a B no matter what I say in print" and it cannot be said that "I must not have really wanted them to make an A"... because in that scenario everyone admits "to free will".

    Arminianism is the job of "stating the obvious".
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The vitriol and derailing of the Calvinist posts in the first 2 examples on this thread - lead me to believe that Calvinists would utterly fail to even have a respectable "showing" on this thread. I am pleased to see that a few people after that ( at least ) approached a few texts seriously.
     
    #20 BobRyan, Mar 2, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
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