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why I am not a Calvinist

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 37818, Jul 4, 2019.

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  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I will make the time.

    Using the TULIP as a guide.
    T
    I believe in the total deprivaty and inability of the unregenerate man to accept and correctly understand the gospel of grace without God's intervention. Romans 3:11. 2 Corinthians 4:3.

    Now the word of God is explicit. Faith precedes regeneration and salvation. Acts of the Apostles 16:31. Ephesians 2:8-9, ". . . through faith . . . ."

    It is my understanding God intervenes with sancification of His Spirit through His truth by which faith can come. John 17:17. 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14. John 16:7-11. Romans 10:17.

    God through His creation gives faith to all mankind, Romans 10:17-18. Psalms 19:4.

    So there will be no excuse when men ultimately resist His Spirit (Acts of the Apostles 7:51).

    U
    I believe God's election is conditional, not unconditional. The primary condtion is it is wholly unmerited on the part of those whom He has chosen. John 3:16. Faith in His Son is a condition without any merit on the part of those who believe. Romans 4:4-5. Titus 3:5.

    L
    I do not believe the provided atonement, propitiation, is limited. 1 John 2:2, ". . . he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. . . ." I do believe that this serves two purposes: First, to make our Lord Judge of all, and second to allow Him to be our Savior and secure salvation for His elect. And that making Him Lord of both the dead, the lost and the living, the saved. Romans 8:34. Romans 14:9-11.

    I
    I do not believe God grace is irrestable. I believe God's grace is there for all mankind, Titus 2:11. And that it is in evidence that men resist it, Acts of the Apostles 7:51.

    P
    I do believe in the perseverance of God's elect. ". . . he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. . . ." -- Matthew 24:13. ". . . [Love] endureth all things. . . ." -- 1 Corinthians 13:7. ". . . every one that loveth is born of God, . . ." -- 1 John 4:7. That it is God alone who does the saving, does the keeping, ". . . I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, . . ." -- John 10:28.

    Please, if you have a disagreement, do only one point per post. Please keep your argument concise. Thank you.
     
    #1 37818, Jul 4, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2019
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Very Good,very clear.
    I am on a coffee break now, so let me ask the easiest question first. The..I...

    Unsaved persons resist Gods grace everyday.
    Resisting Gods grace daily is not in dispute.
    The discussion here is what is effectual or irresistable grace?
    If men resist God and the gospel,what causes that resistance to change to a person fully embracing Jesus as Lord and Saviour?
     
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  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Those who, without any merit on their part, in the sanctification of the Spirit, hearing the gospel, God gives the hearer a changed mind in order to understand and believe it.
    Without merit, being open to believe truth. John 17:17; Romans 10:17: Psalms 19:4. Where God can give them a change of mind in hearing the gift of the gospel.
     
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  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    37818,

    [Those who, without any merit on their part, in the sanctification of the Spirit, hearing the gospel, God gives the hearer a changed mind in order to understand and believe it.
    Without merit, being open to believe truth. John 17:17; Romans 10:17: Psalms 19:4. Where God can give them a change of mind in hearing the the gospel.]

    So we agree God grant's a change of mind.....repentance and faith.
    They are set apart, are given a new heart to welcome truth as in jn.17.
    We agree here.
    When this happens is it effectual? They now believe rather than continue to resist.
    If they no longer resist,this is described as irresistable grace. Their wills have been drawn and overcome by the love and knowledge of God. They now see Jesus as He is in truth.
     
    #4 Iconoclast, Jul 5, 2019
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  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Now here is how it is explained in the 1689;

    Let's look phrase by phrase, I will break it up to identify each item for clarity and discussion;
    Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
    1]Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit,


    2]out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature,


    3]to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God;


    4]taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh;



    5]renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good,



    6]and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ;


    7]yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
    ( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )

    8]This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone,


    9]not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature,


    10]being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses,



    11]until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit;


    12]he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it,



    13]and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
    ( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )


    14] Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
    ( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

    15]Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved:


    16]much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved;


    17]be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
    ( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )
     
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  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I understand that. But it is also my understanding that grace is ultimately avaible to to all men, ". . . For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, . . ." -- Titus 2:11. It is among mankind to hear. So to everyone who does not come to faith, hearing a message, but not receiving it, it is not irresistable.

    So I agree to the save it can be side become irresistable. But to the lost it is resisted (Acts of the Apostles 7:51) making it not irrestable to them. Therefore I do not believe the Calvinist view of irresisble grace, in that, I hold that grace is genuiely offered to the lost. The saved were among the lost who resist it to begin with.
     
    #7 37818, Jul 5, 2019
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  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    In what way is titus2:11 speaking of all men?
    In other words...people living in the rain Forrest who have never heard about Jesus or the cross ,how was it available, God did it appear into them?
    Or do you think the verse is teaching that yhe gospel is going to all men everywhere, not just in Israel?
     
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  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    In post 5 I made each idea separate. Do you agree with all 17 ideas.
    Could you respond to each one, agree, disagree?
    If you disagree could you clarify? Thanks.
     
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Other than an explicit denal of what it says, I honestly cannot understand that text not to speak of all men.

    ". . . For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men. . . ."
     
  10. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Did you read his other post about this? Does it mean every individual man or all men meaning both Jews and Gentiles?
     
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  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    okay let's take a look. In chap two we have this;

    Titus 2 King James Version (KJV)
    2 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

    2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.

    3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

    4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

    5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

    6 Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.

    7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

    8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.

    9 Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again;

    10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.

    11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

    12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

    13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

    14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

    15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

    In the passage it speaks of these people;
    the aged men,
    aged women likewise,
    Young men likewise,
    Exhort servants to be obedient
    unto their own masters

    hath appeared to all men,?
    In the passage it speaks of all ages of men and women, servants, and masters.

    Elders were told to defend the faith from Cretians, Jewish fables, etc....So verse 11 is speaking of the gospel going to all kinds of men.
    jew gentile, young , old...all kinds.

    Now let's look at how you suggest is the plain reading;

    11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

    Do you think, it is every person ever born since Adam and EVE?
    Do you think it is every person since Israel was a nation?
    Do you think it is every person after the cross?

    Now 900 years ago before the internet, phone, tv, etc...how did this salvation appear to people in Peru, Alaska, the jungle, China.....Explain how this verse would have included them.



     
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  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    37818,

    200 people hear the same sermon...that is an outward call as the preacher preaches the gospel. They physically hear it, but 100 resist it......The Holy Spirit opens the hearts of the other 100...that IS THE EFFECTUAL , INWARD CALL.
     
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  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    17 points are not one point.

     
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  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    While I find that interpretation interesring. I do not concur with it. That Greek word translated "hath appeared" only occurs a few times in the NT. And I understand it to refer to the avaibility of the "grace of God that bringeth salvation to all men." Not that everyone will hear the gospel.

    Matthew 24:14, ". . . And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. . . ." This has not yet taken place. 1 Peter 4:7, ". . . But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer. . . ." Titus 2:12.

    Six Degrees of Separation: Fact or Fiction?
     
  16. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    The discussion is going well...take your time.
    Do not think of it as some sort of contest.
    The one point being discussed is irresistible grace. Do not lose focus of that.
    In the confession they walk through the teaching.
    Each of these ideas is designed to present the teaching, and also think about what questions might arise and address them head on.it is not about winning or losing a debate, it is about working through the teaching.
    You might find you agree with 14 out of the 17 statements...
    If we do not come to agreement, at least you will
    Understand the real teaching and not a caricature.
     
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  17. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Okay...I asked you three questions at the bottom of this post. Take some time,answer which one you think is correct, then explain how it manifests itself...what does it mean, what is it teaching
     
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    What did you expect? Monochrome & brevity? :Laugh
     
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  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    If it helps, "irresistible grace" does not mean that men do not resist. It means that God's plan for men will ultimately be accomplished.

    The idea does not stand alone and it is very much dependent on philosophy (how one works through the philosophical aspect of theology).

    Some do view this as God conquering men by force (typically these are not folk who affirm the idea).

    Most of us who affirm the points believe, I think, that this grace is irristable in the sense men are persuaded by the work of God with the crux being that God's plan is going to come to fruition.
     
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