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why I am not a Calvinist

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 37818, Jul 4, 2019.

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  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Sounds true to me.
    Titus 1:2. Titus 2:11.
     
    #21 37818, Jul 5, 2019
  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Brevity in order to give a concise objection, if that is to be the case. Blurring of meanings may not be helpful. There is what a text says and then there is how text is interpreted to mean. Either reading something into the text it does not say or dissallowing what it does say.
     
    #22 37818, Jul 5, 2019
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No text dictates either interpretation. The entire issue is one of systematic theology. So the answer rests in "reasoning together", not accepting or rejecting Scripture.

    These are understandings we are discussing - not Scripture itself. I am a Calvinist because I believe the five points correct. It is not a view I would squander my breath defending, but I do think it can be explained.

    All we can hope for is to better understand one another. Then we can evaluate our own positions.
     
    #23 JonC, Jul 5, 2019
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  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I am fine with a concept of irristable grace, in which God gives a changed mind to some and so some believe. And so can be deemed to be irristable to them. But again, in my understand of God's grace being available to all men, it is not universally irristable, therefore not irristable.
     
    #24 37818, Jul 5, 2019
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I believe grace is avaliable to all in the sense Christ is the Savior of all men. But I believe this grace is paticular in the sense Christ is the Saviour of all men, especially those who believe.

    Again, this is very much philosophical. Ut depends on how the issues are framed and questions answered.
     
    #25 JonC, Jul 5, 2019
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  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Ok. Will, disageements where and why, I think are important to understand. And not merely to agree to disagree, but where possible know and understand it. Inerpretations do read something into or disallow. Titus 2:11, "hath appeared," I understand, available, but not to be understood, all will hear. The into, "available to all." The disallowed, "all to hear."
     
    #26 37818, Jul 5, 2019
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    To illustrate, let's look at Edwardian Calvinism (let's use Edward's example of predestination).

    If God is omniscient then God created men knowing their final states and God is not wrong in His belief. Our final states are, then, by definition predestined (note "decreed" is left at liberty).

    If God is omniscient then God by the act of creation itself chose to create individuals who will be saved and individuals who will not be saved. Nothing can change this without God being less than omniscient.

    Those whom God created to be saved are going to be saved. They are not going to prove God wrong.
     
    #27 JonC, Jul 5, 2019
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  8. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    You can read scripture two ways. "Whoever believes will be saved" = a trait those whom God saves share in common. Or, "Whoever chooses to believe will be saved" = a law people obey to earn salvation.

    But, both Calvinists and Arminians turn the gospel into law which must be obeyed for salvation. The Calvinists says God makes us willing to obey through the Holy Spirit. The Arminian says we obey in the flesh to receive the Holy Spirit.

    The truth is, God regenerates all those whom he saves so they naturally believe. And it is the nature of the New Birth to love holiness and hate sin.

    So I think Calvinism brings us the closest to understanding sin and grace but scripture alone fine tunes it.
     
    #28 1689Dave, Jul 6, 2019
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  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    So, you are saying Titus 2:11 is important because it says salvation" has appeared", but you do not think it is important to understand it beyond that? So you do not feel any need to solve the puzzle?
    Why then do you introduce this in discussing irrestible grace as it would be off topic?


    The issue is there is grace that is resisted, and there is grace that is not ultimately resisted.
     
    #29 Iconoclast, Jul 6, 2019
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  10. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

    2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

    3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;


    This sounds true because it is. God promised it to those He elected, he will save each and every one of them.

    9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
     
    #30 Iconoclast, Jul 6, 2019
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  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Okay, so we agree on this point.
     
    #31 Iconoclast, Jul 6, 2019
  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    37818,
     
    #32 Iconoclast, Jul 6, 2019
  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    #33 37818, Jul 6, 2019
  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    No, not into law. Not to be understood as a work. Grace is the Law that must be obeyed. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8, ". . . when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel . . . ." It must be received as the gift it is in order to obey it. The religious and lost do not understand this, ". . . if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: . . ." -- 2 Corinthians 4:3.
     
    #34 37818, Jul 6, 2019
  15. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Grace is not law. It is the opposite. But those whom God saves will obey the gospel including non-resistance of evil.
     
    #35 1689Dave, Jul 6, 2019
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  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    #36 37818, Jul 6, 2019
  17. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    It's more like this. You are in a coma starving to death. A kind soul comes in and pays for your hospital stay in which case they feed your intravenously. Some time later you awaken to find out what happened. And you are forever grateful to the kind soul who rescued you. And you go and do likewise.

    God saves us when we can't believe or obey, turning us into obedient believers.
     
    #37 1689Dave, Jul 6, 2019
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  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for your clear (or almost clear) statement of beliefs. We agree on three points, Christ died for all mankind, becoming the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, God offers but does not compel salvation, and once saved, always saved. We disagree on the other two points

    I believe unregenerate people can understand and respond to "spiritual milk," 1 Corinthians 3:1, and our individual election for salvation is through faith in the truth, as credited by God, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
     
    #38 Van, Jul 6, 2019
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  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, only if one actually dies as an actual child. Mark 10:14.
     
    #39 37818, Jul 6, 2019
  20. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Paul says we cannot discern spiritual truth (Christ) unless born again.

    “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

    = false Christ unless born again.
     
    #40 1689Dave, Jul 6, 2019
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