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why I am not a Calvinist

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 37818, Jul 4, 2019.

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  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe.
    God can only sanctify those who are open to truth. John 17:17. John 18:37.
     
  2. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    I once thought that, many years ago.
    I no longer see it that way, due to reading the Bible for along time now, and seeing God fill in the details behind how and why a person actually comes to Christ.
    But back then, I assumed that it was out of mortal fear...which, by itself is not a trustworthy motivator.

    In someone who fears ( not Biblical "fear", which is a profound respect and reverence for something or someone ), that "afraidness" can only go so far...take the object or emotion of fear away, and the person who was once afraid of punishment, goes right back to their old behavior.
    I see it in society every day.

    But impress upon a person the need to obey out of duty and especially love, and that person can now be trusted, at least mostly, not to go back to their old ways.

    Another point:
    In the underlined, can you think of any Scriptures that tell you that plain fear was the reason he believed on Christ, or is that a conlusion based on what seems to be?


    I think it's worth investigating.:)
     
    #122 Dave Gilbert, Jul 8, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2019
  3. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    What does this have to do with Calvinism?
     
  4. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    According to God's word, every Jew, at least those who were obedient to the Law, attended synagogue, as far as I know.
    Being exposed to the Scriptures was a fact of life for them, at least for the most part.
    Being under the Law of Moses, he would have been exposed to those principles...following them?

    Perhaps not, at least inwardly.
    I agree.
    The question I have for you is, can you think of any Scriptural reason, without any provocation like external preaching, that he would have had a change of heart right there on his cross... about to die for a crime he committed, while the other thief didn't?

    By the way, welcome to the Baptist Board forums.:)
     
    #124 Dave Gilbert, Jul 8, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2019
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  5. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    To my way of thinking, He can sanctify ( purify ) anyone He wants.
    But perhaps I misunderstand your statement...

    Going by what you appear to be saying, I see that you are stating that a man being open to the truth, is the deciding factor in permitting God to sanctify him.
    in other words, man permits God, and then God acts.

    From my perspective and from what I understand from Scripture, is that the reason that I am open to the truth, is because God changed me on the inside...I am now a new creature in Christ.
    He opened my heart ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ), so that I would "attend" to the truth of my helplessness before Him.
    That is one of the things that gets me labeled as a "Calvinist".


    In addition and according to Scripture, I see the reason why people are not open to the truth, in a wholesale fashion:

    " Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
    47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God.
    " ( John 8:46-47 )
     
    #125 Dave Gilbert, Jul 8, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2019
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Did you even understand Jesus' claim, ". . . Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. . . ."?
     
  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Or..in other words...I do not think you understand what you are objecting to, I do not think you understand the term irresistible grace.
    I think we can clarify it for you even if you oppose yourself .
    HOW about that.
    I doubt your objection can hold up,the OP.
     
  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    That verse is spoken of believers...unbelievers do not become sanctified to be conformed to Jesus.
    This does not address the issue.
     
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Respond to the statement..Does God call them out of a state of sin?
     
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Romans 2:1. Matthew 7:1-2.
     
  11. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    Yes, why would he not be?
     
  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    We disagee. I hold the view point sanctification comes first. Prove otherwise.
     
  13. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    Considering the verse is talking about those who are already believers, this would prove otherwise. Where do you get that sanctification comes before salvation?
     
  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    You suggested that sanctification comes first. Now if you're talkin about before the foundation of the earth God elected the Sinners who he was going to save and Sanctified I could agree that sanctification comes first is that what you're talkin about are you talkin about that God has set aside these centers that he's elected to become holy is that what you mean if not you might have to give more than one sentence or two sentences to explain how you see how this takes place
     
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    All sinners deserve eternal Hell, so the grace of God does not have to be applied by Him towards all lost sinners in order to be "fair", correct?
     
  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    From, not before, ". . . God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . ." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14. Note: the sanctification precedes belief.
     
  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I do not understand what you are asking. Since it is my understanding that God's grace precedes faith and faith precedes salvation.
     
  18. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I did.
    I'll list the passage that I believe that you are referring to:

    "Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice." ( John 18:37 ).


    The way I see this stating, Jesus is telling Pilate that He was sent to bear witness of "the truth"... Himself ( John 5:31, John 8:14 ).
    Pilate asks Him in the very next verse, " Pilate saith unto him, What is truth?" ( John 18:38 )
    The Lord does not reply, because, to me, He already has said what He wanted to say for the benefit of the reader ( John 20:30-31 ), His sheep, knowing that it would be inspired of the Holy Ghost for John to write down.

    I see the Lord speaking, once again, spiritually ( please see John 6:63 ), not carnally...
    Not according to the "natural" man's understanding, but according to the "spiritual" man's.
    The born-again reader of His spiritual words.

    Purposefully not giving Pilate answers that he would understand, is fully within His right to answer or not to answer, as He is God and is beholden to no man's examining of Him... or us even asking, "what doest thou?" ( Romans 9:19-20, Daniel 4:35 ).

    In addition, I see the Lord "being evasive" and speaking spiritual things in the parables to others...
    Why?
    Because they are "without".

    " And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:" ( Mark 4:11 )
    To them that are "without" ( outside the body of Christ ), all things are done in parables to conceal the truth from them.

    Pontius Pilate was, "without".
    Christ then chose to speak to him in this way.
    Why?
    Again, because it is God's prerogative to hide or reveal Himself to whosoever He wishes ( Matthew 11:27, Luke 10:22 ), to be gracious and merciful to whomsoever He wishes ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-16 ).


    Having established that, I see this:
    He is telling Pilate that everyone who is "of God"/ "of the truth" ( "of Christ", of His body ), "hears" His voice...and they do ( John 10:27 ).
    That is why I made the connection with John 8:47.

    "He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God."


    God's blessings to you.
     
    #138 Dave Gilbert, Jul 8, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2019
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    This verse has nothing to do with irresistible grace.
    It is a good verse however that we can get to.
     
  20. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    God from the beginning...the beginning of what?

    Has chosen you to salvation.....who was chosen?
     
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