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Why should Calvinist be upset over MacArthur

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by ILUVLIGHT, Sep 2, 2004.

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  1. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Since first becoming a member here I've had every Calvinist here preach total depravity to me. Total depravity means we are undeserving and worthless.
    If what this link is saying about John MacArthur is true then Calvinist should be just as upset as the BBN
    There has to be a Calvinist here who can verify if what they say is true.
    http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/macarthur/general.htm
    May God Bless You All;
    Mike
     
    #1 ILUVLIGHT, Sep 2, 2004
  2. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    That's BDM/Rick Miesel. He's against just about everyone, for so much as using a TERM associated with "psychology". He is to the ant-psychology movement, what Ruckman is to the KJVO, and Godwin or Watkins is to anti-CCM; though he is not quite as loud and outspoken as these other leaders. Among the "compromise" he condemns everyone for, is considering charismatics "brothers". (and he also always throws in someone's "association" with contemporary music, though he is against KJVOism)
    While the whole "You were valuable/worth enough for God to love" thing, I generally feel is copying secular thought too much, I would imagine, that in the Calvinist context, if a person is elect, then God, then he is valuable to God, and God values him because he is elect, bought with His Son's precious blood. But since God is the one who does the electing, [unconditionally], that still puts the focus back on God. I'm sure if one asked MacArthur, he would affirm this. And since Miesel says elsewhere he believes in UE, he should understand this. But this guy does not give any benefit to any doubt. He just takes people's statements and runs off into space with them to prove they are compromising heretics, much like the KJVO's and anti-CCM. Even the most conservative and fundamentalist do not escape his criticisms.
     
    #2 Eric B, Sep 2, 2004
  3. Monergist

    Monergist New Member

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    Don't take this guy seriously. And I say that as someone who has a great appreciation for John MacArthur, but I would also say it if the reverse were true. If you want to know about MacArthur, depravity, etc., whether Pro or Con, there are much better sources to use.
     
    #3 Monergist, Sep 2, 2004
  4. Major B

    Major B <img src=/6069.jpg>

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    We are certainly undeserving--Pelagius would have agreed with that. However, the doctrine of Total Depravity is a lot more than that. Hey, if you don't believe in it as stated historically, just admit it, don't try to redefine it!


    Total depravity means that we are:

    Dead in sins--Eph 2:1-3
    Blinded-------2 Cor 4:1-3
    Totally insensitive to the things of God--1 Cor 2:14
    Not seeking God (and never will on our own)--Rom 3:9-11, Is 64:7
    Unwilling to believe--John 5:40
    Unable to come to Christ--John 6:44-47, 63-65
    Born in sin, born sinners, born dead--Ps 51:4-5, Ps 58:3, Eph 2:1-3, Rom 5:12
    Unable to change our nature--Jer 13:23
     
    #4 Major B, Sep 2, 2004
  5. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Hi Major B;
    I can agree we don't desever any thing from God. Depravity does exsit it's just not quite as total as Calvinist insist that it is. All men are not blind. Blindness came to the Jews because of non-belief. Why should I admit something that you can't prove is true. You believe it, but the fact that you believe that man is totally depraved doesn't make it so. What is writen is Romans 3 does describe depraity,but total depravity is a reprobate mind, Total depravity means not saveable.
    As far as value, man is valuable to God. This isn't self worth, but we are His creation and He cares about us.
    As far as being dead spiritually we are until we are saved. It's just that what Calvinist compare spiritual death to that's wrong. Calvinist assume that being dead spiritualy is like being dead physcially, but it is not. If it were then the second death which is spiritual death wouldn't exsist.Unless of course you can be born spiritually after being dead then die again. How can someone who is already dead still die again?
    I agree that man can't come to Christ unless drawn. I also believe that man can't come to Christ on his own. Man in sin doesn't seek the one true God. But then man doesn't know about God unless he is told.
    Calvinist believe that man doesn't understand unless regenerated first. Romans 1:20 says differently. With so much scripture saying the oppisite of what Calvinist claim I would never be able to be a Calvinist.
    As far as redefining total depravity I don't redefine it, I just don't believe in something invented by men. Total depravity is not scriptural.
    May God Bless You;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
    #5 ILUVLIGHT, Sep 3, 2004
  6. Major B

    Major B <img src=/6069.jpg>

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    Does total depravity mean men are not savable?

    Absolutely! Unless the power of God is brought to bear, men are not savable. The whole Bible teaches this basic fact!

    I believe it was Jesus who said, "with men this is impossible, but with God, all things are possible."
     
    #6 Major B, Sep 3, 2004
  7. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Hi Major B;
    I agree all things are possible with God.
    May God Bless You;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
    #7 ILUVLIGHT, Sep 3, 2004
  8. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    I'm a Calvinist/Monergist, and I'm having a really hard time getting upset with John MacArthur.

    In fact, I'm having a really hard time getting upset with you, Mike, and I think I would probably remain the same even if you had as big an audience as MacArthur, and we probably don't agree on much of anything with respect to soteriology.

    Why is that, I wonder? Oh yeah - God is in control. not me, you, or MacArthur.
     
    #8 npetreley, Sep 3, 2004
  9. Major B

    Major B <img src=/6069.jpg>

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    I agree all things are possible with God.
    May God Bless You;
    Mike [​IMG]     </font>[/QUOTE]Then, since the two truths are in the same verse, you must agree that "with men, this is impossible..."
     
    #9 Major B, Sep 3, 2004
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The more I read MacArthur the more I like him. Who knows he may see the light and leave Calvinism.

    I would not be surprised. He is a good Bible teacher.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #10 BobRyan, Sep 3, 2004
  11. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Hi Nick;
    Then you see nothing wrong with thinking man has value. Nick what happened to total depravity you know the part about man being worthless?
    May God Bless You;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
    #11 ILUVLIGHT, Sep 3, 2004
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The article shows that MacArthur was speaking in the context of the value GOD places on the soul. And in that - he is right.

    The article shows that our value is found in Christ. We are his jewels. We are the BRIDE of Christ. (Not the worthless wretch of Christ).

    Christ Himself says of His people "Are you not MUCH more valuable than a sparrow?"

    Not because sinners in rebellion against God are of themselves "great" - but Because God is willing to PAY such a high price for humanity. It is this that "sets the value" for the group - the PRICE that He is willing to pay.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #12 BobRyan, Sep 3, 2004
  13. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Hi Major B;
    I've been trying to understand what you're getting at. I asked myself is he talking about making a camel go through the eye of a neddle? [​IMG] Of course not I know you mean can a rich man enter heaven. Did not Christ invite the rich man whom the scripture says Christ loved, to go and sell all he had and give the money to the poor and come and follow Him. Yes He did, but the rich man went away because he couldn't surrender all that he had because he was very rich. Why was it so impossible for him to give up all that he had to live forever. I believe the man worshiped mamon and didn't want to give it up. Man by him self cannot come to the Father except through Christ. We all have to ask our selves if we have other things in our lives that would come before Christ. It's what surrender is all about. Is it possible for a rich man to be rich and still enter heaven?. Yes it is. Peter for instance didn't sell all he had even though he left it to follow Christ. The Fact that he owned a fishing boat and a home certainly places him at least in the middle class. As was Dr Luke. they certainly weren't poor. It's that Peter and Luke didn't allow what they owned to keep them from Christ.
    This takes us back to a decision for Christ it's the decision which makes our relationship to Christ a relationship. I have always loved the Hymn "I surrender all" All that I own all that I care about Christ comes first in my life.
    May God Bless You;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
    #13 ILUVLIGHT, Sep 3, 2004
  14. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Hi Bob Ryan;
    You got it right. It's obvious John Mac Arthur did to. Amen
    May God Bless You;
    Mike
     
    #14 ILUVLIGHT, Sep 3, 2004
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Mike,

    It is always good to find those points of agreement. I agree that MacArthur is making a good point here and is not promoting humanism in anyway.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #15 BobRyan, Sep 4, 2004
  16. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Hi Bob Ryan;
    It is good to find points we can agree on. I've listend to MacArthur for a very long time. I also listen to J.Vernon McGee. I have listened to McGee since I was a small boy. I consider both great men of God not just Calvinist.
    May God Bless You;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
    #16 ILUVLIGHT, Sep 4, 2004
  17. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    "Total depravity means we are undeserving and worthless."

    Not exactly. Total deprav means that all human activity is tainted by sin. God's common grace enables humans do do good in spite of our sin nature.

    The worth of an act is intrinsic to the act and not dependant upon the actor. It is an error to claim that only "genuine" Christians can do good deeds.
     
    #17 billwald, Sep 4, 2004
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