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Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by atpollard, Dec 25, 2021.

  1. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    I LOVE to talk about what the Bible says.

    John 3:16

    Who does the Bible say is saved? (Feel free to pull in verses from the surrounding context for your exegesis).

    What distinguished between one person who is saved and another that is not? The Bible is full of examples of preaching going out into a crowd and SOME believe and are saved and OTHERS in the same crowd are not. [like Acts 2] All heard the same words and saw the same miracles. Why (Biblically) such different outcomes?
     
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  2. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    I don’t see the word ‘saved’ in the text.

    I do see 'entering the kingdom' (getting saved) and 'coming to the light' (also getting saved).

    Before one can 'enter the kingdom' one must first be 'born from above', i.e. regenerate. vv 3 & 5

    And one 'comes to the light' because 'God has wrought within', i.e. regenerate. v 21
     
    #2 kyredneck, Dec 25, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2021
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  3. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Those ‘doing the truth’ in whom God has wrought within ‘come to the light’. v.21

    'Coming to the light' would equate to the evangelical 'getting saved'.

    'In God having been wrought' is the birth from above, i.e. regenerate.

    20 for every one who is doing wicked things hateth the light, and doth not come unto the light, that his works may not be detected;
    21 but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.` Jn 3
     
    #3 kyredneck, Dec 25, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2021
  4. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Joh 3:21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”
     
  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    20 for every one who is doing wicked things hateth the light, and doth not come unto the light, that his works may not be detected;
    21 but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.` Jn 3
     
  6. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Who starts out “doing the truth” and who does not start out “doing wicked things”? [Ephesians 2:1-3] Shouldn’t EVERYONE “hateth the light” and run the other way?

    John Wesley came up with the clever answer of “prevenient grace”, which I like as a concept, but cannot really find solid scriptural support for (and then there are verses like John 6:43-44 and John 10:26 that seem to contradict a prevenient grace for all).
     
  7. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    So let me share one of MY observations on John 3 (and scripture in general).

    I grew up in a world of grays. Four generations with each raised a darker shade of gray than the generation that preceded it. For someone raised in atheism and moral relativism as “the normal” who ultimately embraced ‘nihilism’ as a lifestyle rather than a mere philosophy, the BLACK OR WHITE world-view of scripture was fascinating and alien and exciting. Every time scripture presented it, the BLACK OR WHITE contrast was a slap in the face that jumped out at me … I could not HELP but see it. In John 3 (and salvation) it is everywhere.

    John 3:3 born again OR not … no “sort of pregnant”
    John 3:6 Flesh OR Spirit
    John 3:18 believe = not judged OR not believe = already judged
    John 3:19-20 Men love darkness = hate Light
    OR
    John 3:21 practice truth = come to Light = wrought in God
    John 3:31 from above OR from earth
    John 3:36 Son = eternal life OR no Son = no life (wrath)

    Obviously, the EITHER/OR theme permeates all of scripture. The observation in John 3 is …
    • There is saved (eternal life)
    • There is not saved (judgement, wrath, no life)
    • There is no “in between” state described. One has either BEEN BORN or one has NOT BEEN BORN … nobody is described as half-born.

    That matches my empirical reality … I was spiritually DEAD (from a long line of spiritually dead), then I was spiritually ALIVE. God is what happened between the two states of being.
     
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  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Don't you think Cornelius was 'doing the truth' before hearing the gospel? The Ethiopian eunuch? Nathaniel? Lydia?* I thought you were a Calvinist. It's regeneration BEFORE faith. It's 'born from above' BEFORE one can enter or even see the kingdom of God.

    *They certainly don't fit the description of 'totally depraved' as presented in Romans 3.
     
    #8 kyredneck, Dec 26, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2021
  9. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Not at the MOMENT IN TIME that the snapshot of their lives is frozen in scriptures. Who knows who they were before that moment or what works God had done to get them to that point. That is the problem with most of the people we meet in scripture, we see only one moment in their lives … a photograph rather than a movie.

    Not by choice. :)
    Winston Churchill once said “You can always count on America to do the right thing, after they have tried everything else.” I sometimes feel like Churchill’s America. I heard the GOSPEL from Catholic Charismatics … so of course, I could never bring myself to embrace the Mariancentric Catholicism of the RCC or lie to them and myself and profess to believe what I did not. Nor did the Holy Spirit deem it necessary to provide me with any ‘charismata’.

    Graduating from a very secular Engineering University, I landed in a “Wesleyan Arminian” church where I learned about “bible precepts” from an African Missionary. Of course, I could never reconcile what I read in scripture, my personal “Road to Damascus” salvation experience and the “Wesleyan” teaching of the Pastor and elders. I really LIKE Wesleyan Arminianism … I just cannot accept it as biblically correct.

    So I struggled on with scripture and a Moody graduate Adult Sunday School teacher to find answers that matched what I read in the Bible and what I experienced in my life (the only two reliable sources of information that I had - God and experience).

    An online quiz eventually revealed that the answers that I had arrived at were a 100% match to something called “Reformed Baptist” … which I later learned was more properly known as “a Particular Baptist”.

    So I am sort of a “Calvinist” … I agree with TULIP … but I have read almost nothing by good old John Calvin and I am Credobaptist, so I disagree with the covenant theology of my Reformed (like Presbyterian) brothers who are more direct decedents of Calvinism and the Reformation.

    This I agree with … completely … because that is EXACTLY how it was for me. There is no sense in which I was SEEKING God when God reached out and laid claim of me.
     
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  10. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    They were lost sinners seeking to save themselves by their works. If they weren't, they had nothing to do with Jesus Christ (Mark 2:17 etc.). Their good deeds were like filthy rags before the Lord, But He, in His mercy, opened their hearts to receive the Gospel.
    Not all sinners are the same. Some are very respectable, like the Pharisee and the RYR in Luke 18, and do all sorts of good deeds, but at their very best and highest, they fall way short of the glory of God. Others are notoriously wicked, or even the 'chief of sinners' like Saul of Tarsus. But all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
    "For I say to you that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. The only righteousness that avails with God is the imputed righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ which is attained only by grace through faith.
     
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  11. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    I don't share your judgmental Pharisaical attitude at all Martin. I prefer 'lost sheep' looking for answers and/or a home. If they're truly 'seeking God' I'd rather think that their hearts have been made right and now they need the gospel to set their minds right.

    But go ahead with your huff, puff and blow.

    24 The God that made the world and all things therein, he, being Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
    25 neither is he served by men`s hands, as though he needed anything, seeing he himself giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
    26 and he made of one every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed seasons, and the bounds of their habitation;
    27 that they should seek God, if haply they might feel after him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us:
    28 for in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain even of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Acts 17
     
    #11 kyredneck, Dec 26, 2021
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  12. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    The difference is God chose them to fulfill His purpose, not based on anything they were doing, but because of the kind intention of His will and the furthering of His plan of redemption.

    Peter realized the gospel of Jesus would go to the unclean Gentiles, and the enoch took the gospel to Africa. Part of the plan.

    peace to you
     
  13. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    You sound like Martyn Lloyd-Jones. He was a Calvinist who spoke highly of the Wesleys and Methodism but said they had a muddled theology. He actually said Calvinism needs some Methodism or it can become too intellectual and lack prayer.
     
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  14. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    I suppose this could be true about Calvinism if a person only falls upon the confessions and doesn't apply oneself to the scripture first. Certainly it is easy to fall on traditions and catechisms as the source of truth and thus remove the power of God's word working daily in ones life.
     
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  15. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    The lack of grace in your theology is nicely balanced by the lack of grace in your posts. You scarcely seem to manage a reply to anyone on this board without adding a sneer.
    Just so. But alas, unsaved people do not seek God; neither do they feel after Him; nor unless God draws them, do they find Him. As it is written, 'All day long I have stretched out My hands to a disobedient and contrary people' (Romans 9:21). And again, 'There is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside' (Romans 3:11-12). If Cornelius was genuinely seeking after God, it was only because God was already drawing him with lovingkindness (Jeremiah 31:3).
     
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  16. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ...or maybe it's your theology that lacks grace and you really do come across with a judgmental Pharisaical attitude. You judged these infants in Christ HARSHLY.

    Never mind that God ordained it. Spoken like a true Pharisee.

    All His babes begin somewhere.
     
  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The saved trust in God and in His Son's finished work. That God does the saving and God who saves does the keeping. Hebrews 10:17. 1 John 5:9-13. See my signature below.

    The lost rely on what they believe they must do in order to be saved and keep themselves saved. And what ever Scriptures that justify in their minds their works in order to be saved and stay saved.
     
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  18. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    On the contrary, I open up the gates of heaven to helpless sinners. It is you, not I, who would tell Jairus' daughter that if she will just bring herself back to life, then Christ will take her by the hand. It is you, not I, who tell Lazarus that if he will only come back to life and purify his stinking flesh, Jesus will call him out of the tomb.

    'But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ. By grace you have been saved.'

    Come on, man, just think through what you're teaching, for pity's sake!
     
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  19. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    This is one of the most insane posts you've made Martin. I don't even know what you're talking about.

    Your imagination is running wild, again.
     
  20. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    There is room for agreement within both of these posts.

    I take the Scripture foundation presenting The Christ brought light to every person (John 1) but all have sinned and doing so rejected that light.

    I also take as foundational, that the Father gives those who are to be saved by name to the Son and those given will be saved. (John 6)

    Where one poster is factually presenting that there are those who do seek, the other poster is also presenting that all are dead.

    Where then is the resolve?

    John 6:44 and John 6:65

    Both these good men are right.

    They merely have to look for who compels the person to seek. Lazarus was dead until compelled by The Lord Jesus to hop out side (unless he floated out).
     
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