So are you saying that Righteousness is needed IN ADDITION TO justification before a sinner can have right standing with God?
Why the crucifixion?
Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Helen, Oct 28, 2005.
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"...and everything that does not come from faith is sin." Although Paul is referring to actions here -- using eating meat as an example -- he is referring to sin in an entirely different way than he does in Romans 7 and other places where he states that law defines sin. Perhaps the answer to that seeming discrepancy lies in Romans 2: 12-16? This is the passage in which Paul refers to Gentiles who do not have the law nevertheless show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts and therefore obeying their consciences is the same as obeying the law.
Put this with Romans 1 where no man has an excuse due to the witness of creation itself and you are right -- unbelief becomes a sin because it even goes against the conscience of the Gentile which will accuse him in accord with the truth he has been presented with.
Thank you for helping me answer my question/challenge regarding unbelief, whether it is a sin or merely a choice. It is clearly both.
This, then, would be the sin that is atoned for, but never forgiven. For all sin is atoned for, but one is not forgiven.
edit: just noticed in answering Monergist the quote from Paul in Romans 5:15 -- "And where there is no law there is no transgression". When you think about it, though, the law that is being broken by unbelief is the very first commandment, isn't it? "You shall have no other gods [authorities] before me". Those who suppress the truth (Romans 1) choose to worship the created rather than the creator and this puts other gods before our Lord God.
So there is a law that unbelief breaks. I wonder why the others did not point this out? -
Monergist, yes. Justification is a legal position Christ supplied to all to be taken or refused. Righteousness, however, is a gift to those who respond in faith. It is listed as a gift in Romans 5. Abraham believed, and it was credited to him as righteousness. Romans 4:13 refers to the righteousness that comes by faith. This, clearly, is not given to everyone -- only to those who have faith, for all righteousness is in Christ Jesus.
If you are talking about 'right standing with God' in terms of a legal condition, then righteousness is not necessary. If you are talking about a 'right standing with God' in terms of a relationship with Him, then righteousness, which comes by faith, is absolutely necessary in addition to justification.
As far as chiding you regarding a verse, I was not chiding at all. I ended up agreeing with you when the verse was put in context, remember? I just wanted to point out that any verse depends on context. As far as the use of words meaning what they mean, however, I have also used context to show that and then simply referred to the words later. -
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One point that I am unclear on is this statement-- "If you are talking about 'right standing with God' in terms of a legal condition, then righteousness is not necessary. Perhaps you or someone can expand on this; perhaps I am being obtuse. Thayer's defines "righteousness" as:
Also, I have trouble with the statement: "Justification is a legal position Christ supplied to all to be taken or refused. Righteousness, however, is a gift to those who respond in faith." Later you state "...righteousness, which comes by faith, is absolutely necessary in addition to justification. I see no biblical warrant for these claims.
Easton's defines justification as:
Justification is a legal position Christ supplied to all... .
I hope that you can shed some light on what I see as contradictions to the clear teaching of scripture. For right now, it seems that this argument is a distortion of the true gospel and is a subtle attack on the Biblical doctrine of the Imputed Righteousness of Christ. -
Bob -
One of Hell's torments will be to know then that they could have been saved, but neglected or rejected God's only plan through His Son, Jesus.
All of the sins of the world were place on Christ as the Apostle John says in I John 2:2. To neglect so great and perfect plan of salvation, will become Hell in the tortured minds of all lost sinners not for 10,000 years but forever, a term that we really cannot explain to other people.
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