There are better ways to challenge his credibility if he is making such a claim...That is difference maybe you should take note of. ;)
Why? Why?
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by OldRegular, Mar 4, 2014.
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In time we are grafted into the tree of life. We are grafted in when we heard the Gospel of our salvation having believed.
Rom 11 show five groups. Those who was never cut out the remnant and able to enter, those who are grafted in who heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed, those who do not continue in their unbelief and grafted back in, those are cut out and not able to enter not for not being chosen but for unbelief, and finally those who do not enter either because the never heard the gospel or walked away from it.
We are saved not from anything that came from us, but what came from God His word when we listened and learned from it.
Faith is a noun an object like the word of God. A verb belief comes from us not from God. God does not have to believe in Himself we do.
Faith a noun we have to take by a verb action believe. -
Just a quick note on the 7000 chosen because they have not bowed a knee to Baal. The grammar of Romans 11:4 is clear, they were chosen conditionally, they had not bowed when chosen. All this appeal to grammar is fiction.
What Calvinism argues is the opposite of what it says. Had others already bowed? Yes, thus were not reserved, were not left, were not protected. The Calvinist baloney asserts that God choose the 7000 and caused them not to bow. Why not everybody?
The passage gives the reason for reserving them, they had faith from which their commitment to God was unwavering.
Bottom line, according to Calvinism, nothing means what it says if it says Calvinism is mistaken. :) -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
The Archangel -
Were we grafted in when we heard the gospel, having believed? There is no such thing as a faithomatic salvation. Only when God credits your faith as righteousness, does God set you apart in Christ for salvation.
Lets review Romans 11:
1) All Israel does not refer to descendents of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, but to those who put their trust in God, including Gentiles.
2) The purpose of the partial hardening of the unbelieving Jew was to send the gospel into the Gentile world.
3) Now, since the Gentiles have been shown mercy, the believing Jews may now be shown mercy. -
Just a quick note on the 7000 chosen because they have not bowed a knee to Baal. The grammar of Romans 11:4 is clear, they were chosen conditionally, they had not bowed when chosen. All this appeal to grammar is fiction.
What Calvinism argues is the opposite of what it says. Had others already bowed? Yes, thus were not reserved, were not left, were not protected. The Calvinist baloney asserts that God choose the 7000 and caused them not to bow. Why not everybody?
The passage gives the reason for reserving them, they had faith from which their commitment to God was unwavering.
Bottom line, according to Calvinism, nothing means what it says if it says Calvinism is mistaken. -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
The Archangel -
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
Romans 10:17
King James Version (KJV)
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:17
New International Version (NIV)
17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.
Exodus 12:48
“A foreigner residing among you who wants to celebrate the Lord’s Passover must have all the males in his household circumcised; then he may take part like one born in the land. No uncircumcised male may eat it.
Numbers 9:14
“‘A foreigner residing among you is also to celebrate the Lord’s Passover in accordance with its rules and regulations. You must have the same regulations for both the foreigner and the native-born.’”
Israel is the people of God Gentiles have always been included from the beginning when they heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed and Israel those who have been cut out is for unbelief. In Christ we are one Gentiles or Jew.
My faith is the words of Jesus and the words about Him and trust in in Christ you are included when you heard the Gospel of your salvation having believed just as eph says.
If you have not heard the Gospel of your salvation having believed you have no faith a noun to be credited -
On 11/1/2013 you said:"Romans 9:16 teaches men can will and work to be saved,thus spiritual inability is once again shown to be mistaken doctrine." I had replied with:"You turn Scripture on its head. Listen and read closely:'It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy.' "
Then Van said in reply:"Why would God still blame us for our choices after He hardened our heart? My answer is He would not."
And of course Van sounded just like the objector to Paul in Romans 9:"One of you will say to me:'The why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?' "
Paul concludes the matter with :"But who are you, a human being,to talk back to God? 'Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it,"Why did you make me like this?' " and following. -
It is because it is God's desire that they resist that teaching.
They are simply fulfilling God's Sovereign determination for their lives.
My counter-question to you might be:
"Why does that seem to bother those of your Theological conviction so much"? -
Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Inspector Javert said: ↑In accordance with your belief system..
It is because it is God's desire that they resist that teaching.
They are simply fulfilling God's Sovereign determination for their lives.Click to expand...
However, you may have a point. The Apostle Paul speaking of his kinsman after the flesh and also the Gentiles said:
1st Corinthians 1:22, 23.
22. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
And then there was that Saint named Stephen who told the Jews, just before they stoned him with Saul looking on, in that most superb sermon: Acts 7:51. Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
You see it is the nature of the unsaved man, the natural man, to resist God: 1st Corinthians 2:14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
It is for this reason that God must always take the initiative in Salvation, first in Election from the foundation of the World {Ephesians 1:4}, and then in time the regeneration {New Birth} of the elect one!
Inspector Javert said: ↑My counter-question to you might be:
"Why does that seem to bother those of your Theological conviction so much"?Click to expand... -
OldRegular said: ↑You know little to nothing about my belief system!Click to expand...
However, you may have a point.Click to expand...
That's because I understand an awful lot about your belief system.
No doubt you probably personally hold to some particular ideas which are unique to yourself and/or not commonly shared by all proponents of your general Theology, but you ascribe to a basic system of belief which has been clearly articulated for hundreds of years by some very intelligent and capable expositors.
There is nothing new under the Sun...
Whatever you believe....
Someone Centuries and likely Millennia before you has believed and articulated it before.
It's not a secret handshake. Calvinists have been teaching and promoting their system quite plainly and publically for centuries.......
They've published books.
They still do.
I understand it.
I can't speak for those supposedly of my "theological conviction".Click to expand...
As I did.
In the OP I simply wondered why so many who believe that God chose Israel for His purpose {Many people still believe the Jews are the "Elect of God".} reject the Biblical teaching that God elects, in this dispensation, certain people to Salvation in Jesus Christ, just as He did in the Old Testament.Click to expand...
All other influences and methodologies of how God operates and why he desires it to be so etc...are ancillary.
At brass-tacks....it boils down to the fact that that is what God wants.Click to expand... -
Inspector Javert said: ↑I understand your belief system quite well.Click to expand...
Inspector Javert said: ↑I know I do...
That's because I understand an awful lot about your belief system.Click to expand...Click to expand... -
Hi Rippon, I am completely consistent. You like to charge opponents with inconsistency, but it is a ploy, a tactic, devoid of truth or merit of any kind. Using logical fallacies to bolster mistaken views is your stock and trade.
Romans 9:16 proves the T of the TULIP is mistaken doctrine, because men can will and work to achieve salvation, something denied by Calvinism. Will Rippon address this fact, or will he change the subject?
Romans 11:4 teaches God makes conditional elections, the gracious choice of firm believers, like the 7000, and as described in 2 Thessalonians 2:13, chosen through faith in the truth.
So having no answer, they disparage and change the subject. -
Psalms 109:31 said:Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,Click to expand...
Were you spiritually in Christ when you believed or or did you believe and then you were set apart in Christ. Saved by grace through faith teaches we had faith before we were saved. It is like entering a room through a door. You must go through the door before you enter the room. -
Van said:Romans 9:16 proves the T of the TULIP is mistaken doctrine, because men can will and work to achieve salvation, something denied by Calvinism.Click to expand...
Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
I fail to see how this discounts total depravity. In fact, it seems to affirm it. Men are so depraved, that no matter how much will or exertion they put forth to earn salvation, it will never be enough. It must be a divine work of God to overcome the depraved will.
Again, the context is about God being just in choosing someone for mercy and by implication not someone else. It doesn't matter what you do, God's election is not based on that.
As I asked before, but don't think I ever received an answer, Van, am I correct in understanding that you believe Rom. 9 to be about salvation? -
Rippon said: ↑On 11/1/2013 you said:"Romans 9:16 teaches men can will and work to be saved,thus spiritual inability is once again shown to be mistaken doctrine." I had replied with:"You turn Scripture on its head. Listen and read closely:'It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy.' "
Then Van said in reply:"Why would God still blame us for our choices after He hardened our heart? My answer is He would not."
And of course Van sounded just like the objector to Paul in Romans 9:"One of you will say to me:'The why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?' "
Paul concludes the matter with :"But who are you, a human being,to talk back to God? 'Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it,"Why did you make me like this?' " and following.Click to expand...
Here's another example of poor theology from the Vanster:"Only an irrational mind would say punishing someone else for the sins of another is right." (11/1/2103)
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