"Predestination", "Total Sovereignty", "FORCED" Adam/Eve to sin, God, Not Satan, not only tempted, but "DECEIVED" Adam and Eve into "Thinking", "THEY" were "guilty" of the offence, when actually, it was the "Soveriegn will of God", rather than the weakness of "THEIR TEMPTATION".
"Total Sovereignty", begins "at the very beginning", so, who/what's responsible for "SIN"??
1. God's sovereignty
2. man's choice???
Are you going to maintain that it was "God's sovereign will" for Adam to eat of the tree when Scripture "PLAINLY" says God told them "NOT TO EAT"???
Even a "Child" knows it's not the "will" of the parent when they're told "don't do something".
but Calvinism says, "yes it is their/God's will". :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Actually, Adam/Eve got into trouble with God because they were following God's "Sovereign will" for sin to enter the world. :eek:
Like to buy some ocean front property in Tennesse??? "Cheap". :D :D
Why would God say: "I Have Hated Esau..."?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Ben W, Jan 13, 2006.
Page 3 of 8
-
Great post, me4him.
That's why I have always maintained that there is no such thing as "hyper calvinism". The system of calvinism by default is "hyper" if you take God's sovereignty to the depths they do. -
Me4 asks:
"Like to buy some ocean front property in Tennesse??? "Cheap"."
You're kidding, right??
Where are you going to find cheap property around Gatlinburg or Opryland(R)?
Ed -
Hello webdog. :cool:
john. -
-
Me4Him:
Heh! Heh!
Ed -
Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all.... and upon all them that believe:
-
Show me where Israel the nation is referred to as elect and you have a point otherwise one should not use the word elect to mean choose. It does mean choose but only of the elect. Did God elect a nation? No He chose a nation and elected some of them while ignoring the rest of the world.Click to expand...
Isaiah 41:8 "But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend."Click to expand...Isaiah 42:1 "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles."
Isaiah 45:4 "For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me."
Isaiah 65:9 "And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there."
Isaiah 65:22 "They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands."
I Peter 2:6 "Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded."Click to expand...
1. In the Old Testament elect had to do with God's chosen people Israel (the old covenant).
2. In I Peter 2:6 the elect is obviously Christ.
3. In Romans 9:11 the election could just simply be referring to God's choice of which son would be the father of the nation of Israel. The main point being that Jacob was not the firstborn; therefore, the fact that God specifically chose Jacob is obvious.
4. In every other passage in the New Testament elect seems to refer to believers. -
Another context for election--Romans 11:28:
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.Click to expand... -
Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scott J:
[QB] [ What obstacle in this grand scheme of history you describe can God not move if it suits His perfect will?Click to expand...
Unless you are an open theist then you must agree that when God calls someone that will respond He does so for a different reason than when He "calls" someone who will reject.
You are still ascribing individual salvation to an individual's own good will... making God a respecter of persons, a victim of the sovereign creature, and impotent.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />]I, being a Calvinist, can consistently say that He allows those "obstacles" to exist specifically because it accommodates His plan.Click to expand...
Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all.... and upon all them that believe:</font>[/QUOTE] It's amazing that you think stripping a scripture of its context makes a good argument.
The "righteousness" is of God. The goodness to have faith DOES NOT come from YOU. The immediate context provided by verses 11-21 argues clearly that man is not good and does not seek God. The source of saving faith is ultimately God's election and regeneration of the saints according to His own good pleasure. He changes one's nature and they believe of their own freel will operating under that new nature.
Cross reference to Ephesians 1 and 2:8-9. We are saved BY grace and THROUGH faith- not by faith through grace.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> It is neither His fault that the obstacles exist nor is it incumbent upon Him to give all obstacles an equal opportunity for removal.
Not willing for any to perish is not an "opportunity"???Click to expand...
The definition you use for "willing" when arguing against Calvinism is no less harmful to your position. If God "wills" that none perish in the sense you argue then either God is not omnipotent or universalism is true.
So God is not sovereign... there is terrain that He simply has to by pass because He cannot change it?Click to expand...Click to expand...
You didn't answer the question... you just asked something very akin to what the definition of "is" is.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Meaning that man is sovereign and dictates the outcome to a God who must simply adjust His plans? That might be some god... but it isn't the God of the Bible.Click to expand...
You are attempting to make a issue here as a smokescreen. I think we both believe that man chose and chooses sin. What we disagree on is what the root cause for salvation is. I say it is God's grace and goodness. You say it is man's free will and goodness.
I recognize that Adam as mankind's representative made a choice that was not of the same "similitude" as any choice made since except for the sinless Christ (Romans 5). His choice resulted in spiritual death for our whole race- inherited from our parents.
Man's sin was not caused by God but God did foresee it and incorporate it in His plan... If He had so chosen, this "obstacle" could have easily been moved by Him. Yet it apparently suited His purpose just the way it was.if any were to be saved, that's not an adjustment from a plan with no sin, to a plan with sin???Click to expand...
Your argument is vanity. Just like the absurd argument that says that God is guilty of sin because He put the tree in the garden knowing would be tempted and fail.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
BTW, it might have been a slip but you just made a very reasonable conclusion from your system. Ultimately, you make an individuals salvation critically dependent on their goodness and not God's grace.Click to expand...
Beyond that, faith is good unless you are arguing that the lack of faith is not good reason for a person being lost. Even worse for your position, you argue that God's sovereign act of regeneration doesn't result in this faith but rather a person makes a free will decision. Decisions are made by a process of evaluation. Processes, whether mental or physical, are work.
By faith, (first step) are ye "Saved", (second step)Click to expand...
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> God being a sovereign engineer chooses the path for the road and conforms those obstacles in its path according to His own good purpose... and bypasses the other "obstacles" having no obligation whatsoever to do anything but by pass them.Click to expand...
But you are still left with a problem if you were even in the neighborhood of being right... the opportunity IS NOT offered to all. Many live and die without hearing the gospel. Further, none of those who DO hear the gospel hear it with equal clarity and frequency. This notion of equal opportunity you have is beyond ridiculous.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Who are you to say that the mountains that are left alone are also a testimony to the glorious Engineer of the road?
Why cite scripture that has nothing to do with your point?
Click to expand...
But your answer has nothing to do with the question anyway.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />BTW, you still haven't given a simple, direct answer to the question I asked... though this post comes dangerously close to a "yes, man can thwart God's perfect will" answer.Click to expand... -
The "righteousness" is of God. The goodness to have faith DOES NOT come from YOU.Click to expand...
-
God created everything that exists... Suffering?
...what difference does it make when the "faith" is "given" to a believer? All people have "faith"; it is the object of faith that makes the difference.Click to expand...
Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God...
Now everyone pleases God. :cool:
john. -
Originally posted by Scott J:
Unless you are an open theist then you must agree that when God calls someone that will respond He does so for a different reason than when He "calls" someone who will reject.Click to expand...
I'd suggest you learn a little about "law/Justice", Judgment day is Judgment "according to law".
The "righteousness" is of God. The goodness to have faith DOES NOT come from YOU. The immediate context provided by verses 11-21 argues clearly that man is not good and does not seek God.Click to expand...
Mt 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
This young man wasn't save, yet was "seeking God", as do many others today.
Isa 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found,
Cross reference to Ephesians 1 and 2:8-9. We are saved BY grace and THROUGH faith- not by faith through grace.Click to expand...
The definition you use for "willing" when arguing against Calvinism is no less harmful to your position. If God "wills" that none perish in the sense you argue then either God is not omnipotent or universalism is true.Click to expand...
Did you go to the Bill Clinton school of word twisting and evasion?Click to expand...
God knew that sin would occur before He created man and gave him a choice... yes, a real choice. God permitted it.Click to expand...
What we disagree on is what the root cause for salvation is. I say it is God's grace and goodness. You say it is man's free will and goodness.Click to expand...
Would you like to guess what the "Body" is made from???
There's an understanding of scripture that goes beyond the "words on the paper".
God's plan of redemption preceeds Adam's "choice". God planned it from the start. He allowed man's sin which He most certainly could have prevented so that His plan would be accomplished.Click to expand...
Your argument is vanity. Just like the absurd argument that says that God is guilty of sin because He put the tree in the garden knowing would be tempted and fail.Click to expand...
"FAITH" is not "goodness", Faith leads "TO" God's Salvation/Grace.
Nope. Grace uses faith as its vehicle. You need to re-read Ephesians 2:8-9.Click to expand...
You've got "A LOT" to learn about scripture.
God isn't "Obligated" to save any, but under "LAW/JUSTICE", equal opportunity must be offer to "ALL".
That is you imposing your bias upon God. You have placed an "obligation" by your own fiat- without scriptural basis. By law/justice, God shouldn't save any.Click to expand...
This notion of equal opportunity you have is beyond ridiculous.Click to expand...
BTW, you still haven't given a simple, direct answer to the question I asked... though this post comes dangerously close to a "yes, man can thwart God's perfect will" answer.Click to expand... -
Originally posted by AresMan:
Is it possible that the election in this verse could be referring to Israel? God still has a loving covenant with the nation of Israel as a whole. Concerning the gospel Israel has become enemies of those that preach it; yet concerning the fact that they are God's chosen people (election), they are beloved for the sake of God's covenant with the fathers. Could this be the correct way to read this passage?Click to expand...
The "promise" made to Abraham applies "literally", to Israel. (Jews)
It's still "BY FAITH", that doesn't change.
In every generation from Abraham until the "end", a "decendant" of Abraham will be saved.
Ro 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
This isn't due to "predestination", but "Foreknowledge", no one is saved outside the plan of salvation, BY FAITH.
And it's because of this Jew today can be "enemies of the gospel" and still have a "HOPE" of being saved, which "NO GENTILE" can say the same.
God's promise to "save a remnant" is only for the nation of Israel, this is why they are referred to as "ELECT",
Jesus saves from among "ALL NATIONS" on a "WHOSOEVER WILL" bases, the "Gentiles" are not "Elect" until saved, then they become "Jews".
Joh 4:22 for salvation is of the Jews.
Ro 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, (born again)
The trib is the last week of "Daniel's 70 weeks" prophecy, and it's during this time God will bring the "Literal Remnant" to salvation that he promised to Abraham. -
Israel is God's "elect" nation for the purpose of being a peculiar nation among nations.
Believers are God's "elect" individuals for the purpose of being saved from wrath and being a peculiar people all around the world. -
Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scott J:
Unless you are an open theist then you must agree that when God calls someone that will respond He does so for a different reason than when He "calls" someone who will reject.Click to expand...
I'd suggest you learn a little about "law/Justice", Judgment day is Judgment "according to law".</font>[/QUOTE] I would suggest you stop making up rules for God to obey.
Justice does NOT demand it. Justice demands that each and every one of us be thrown into hell for eternity. That would be justice. It is "unjust" that any are saved.
You still haven't shown an scripture that makes this fallacy of "equal opportunity" a requirement on God.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
The "righteousness" is of God. The goodness to have faith DOES NOT come from YOU. The immediate context provided by verses 11-21 argues clearly that man is not good and does not seek God.Click to expand...
Mt 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
This young man wasn't save, yet was "seeking God", as do many others today. </font>[/QUOTE] Notably this man was not seeking God. He was seeking self-justification (like many today) as becomes apparent if you leave it in context.
And though you "claim" that my point is refuted by "nature"... you didn't refute it with nature or scripture.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Cross reference to Ephesians 1 and 2:8-9. We are saved BY grace and THROUGH faith- not by faith through grace.Click to expand...
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
The definition you use for "willing" when arguing against Calvinism is no less harmful to your position. If God "wills" that none perish in the sense you argue then either God is not omnipotent or universalism is true.Click to expand...
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />God knew that sin would occur before He created man and gave him a choice... yes, a real choice. God permitted it.Click to expand...
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> What we disagree on is what the root cause for salvation is. I say it is God's grace and goodness. You say it is man's free will and goodness.Click to expand...
There's an understanding of scripture that goes beyond the "words on the paper".Click to expand...
Again, you're "tripping" over the difference in "Foreknowledge" and "Predestine".Click to expand...
]Ga 3:6 Even as Abraham believed (faith) God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. (saved)
You've got "A LOT" to learn about scripture.Click to expand...
Exactly, but if he offers salvation to "ONE", then he's "obligated" to offer it to "ALL",Click to expand...which he did, Jesus didn't come to condemn the world but to save it, and died for the sins of the "Whole world".Click to expand...
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />BTW, you still haven't given a simple, direct answer to the question I asked... though this post comes dangerously close to a "yes, man can thwart God's perfect will" answer.Click to expand...
AND YOU STILL HAVEN'T GIVEN A SIMPLE DIRECT ANSWER TO THE QUESTION. This is very telling. You know that your answer is wrong but can't bring yourself to give it or admit it. -
Double post.
-
Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> What we disagree on is what the root cause for salvation is. I say it is God's grace and goodness. You say it is man's free will and goodness.Click to expand...
I actually like this parable very much since it is just one more illustration that validates God's sovereignty in salvation.
I forgot to add above that the good ground wasn't good by choice... it was good by nature. That is completely consistent with my point that God changes the man's nature prior to "the seed" and totally inconsistent with your contention. -
There was a quote made by someone above:
"quote: Did you go to the Bill Clinton school of word twisting and evasion?"
I am no special fan of Bill Clinton by any stretch of the imagination, but is this implied guilt by association or defamation of character or character assassination really necessary, here?
For the record, I did not vote for Bill Clinton to be President, either time he ran, nor would I be at all likely vote for him today for ANY office. I thought he should have been impeached, which he was, and convicted on the impeachment charges and removed from the Presidency. Obviously, the US Senate did not agree.
I do not care what your personal opinion of any particular person is, this sort of thing is a 'cheap shot'.
Ed -
Originally posted by EdSutton:
There was a quote made by someone above:
"quote: Did you go to the Bill Clinton school of word twisting and evasion?"
I am no special fan of Bill Clinton by any stretch of the imagination, but is this implied guilt by association or defamation of character or character assassination really necessary, here?Click to expand...
Repeatedly my distinguished opponent has evaded direct questions... often by twisting words... similar to what Clinton did when asked questions that he knew would hurt his cause if answered directly and honestly.
I am sorry if you don't like the analogy. Certainly if Me4Him took it as an egregious offense, I would encourage him/her to say so or else just report it to the moderators for amendment.I do not care what your personal opinion of any particular person is, this sort of thing is a 'cheap shot'.
EdClick to expand...
Sorry it so offended your sensibilities.
Page 3 of 8