As I said, sometime when I have time I'll try to read it. As it is I'm kinda busy getting ready for Creation, so I've only had time for some light browsing and responding today. Maybe after this weekend I can do a more in depth analysis of your post. Of course you didn't bother to respond to what I DID write.
Three amigos huh?
Would you give up your rock?
Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Dootles, Sep 27, 2002.
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Fair enough.
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He is quite possibly the weakest opponent I have ever faced next to Mike Mck. -
How soon you forget.
Shall I jog your memory to the "What is my sin" thread which you shut down out of nothing other than frustration?
Oh wait I think your reason was that you couldn't 'see the benefit' in allowing a thread which had accumulated 5 pages of responses in two and a half days (a large percentage of the contributors being non MMF regulars) to continue.
Yes I do have the right to a tested and established position on the inherent morality of music. Why? Firstly, because Scripture is totally silent on the issue. Secondly, because I am making no charges of sin against anyone.YOU ARE. Is there a way I can make this any clearer to you? If there is feel free to let me know.
The the sequence of events goes like this:
1) You initiate confrontation with direct acusations of sin against those who enjoy whatever styles of music you disapprove of.
2) I say "Show me the sin".
3) Rather than respond by demonstrating what my sin is because you are so obviously in the right, you tell me I am equally burdened with the task of proving I am innocent.
You are correct in that we never debated. A debate requires two parties to support their opposing claims with evidence. You have not once done so.
I would also like to point out that the only reason I do not quote Scripture where it concerns the sin or lack of sin in music is that there is not one single piece of Scripture to quote on the subject. Did you happen to notice in that long blathering piece of garbage by Peter Masters in which he creates a bunch of cult like terminology (sensual, ecstatic worship etc. etc.) to describe what is nothing more than his hatred for music, that he also does not quote one single passage of Scripture to back his claims?
No my friend, the burden of proof is and always will be on you, and you can be sure I won't let you forget it for as long as you are here to spread your hate.
[ June 24, 2003, 04:54 AM: Message edited by: Travelsong ] -
For anyone who might be interested in seeing the thread I referred to, here it is. Judge for yourself whether my question was ever answered.
What Is My Sin -
The problem with even starting to think about the question is that you say I do not listen to music that has an unchristian message in any respect.
That is such a vague statement, could you give specific examples of secular music which you do listen to.
Then we might be able to begin a serious discussion, but only on the understanding that I am not claiming to be without sin, or perfect or more spiritual than you.
If you honestly want help in discerning what is wrong with secular music, I am willing to give it a shot.
God Bless
Enda -
I listen to all types of music so the list would be extensive. If I had to pick an all time favorite it would be Bob Dylan from the period of 1962 to 1967 (that would include the basement tapes which weren't released until 1975 and most of the bootleg series which weren't released until recently). With that information you can do one of two things: 1) Go perform a lyric search in yet another attempt to avoid the question or 2) address the the question and get right down to the heart of the matter.
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Oh and by the way, if you are sincere in your desire to answer this question, I suggest you do it with as little beating around the bush as possible. Aaron will not allow a discussion like this to take place.He has way too much of a stake to let it all come crumbling down now.
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The first thing to get straight is the fact that you cannot seperate the music from the lyrics. An examination of the lyrics is vital before you can decide wheather it is right or wrong to listen to it.
I presume when you say you listen to Bob Dylan you mean lyrics and all. You cannot say I listen to the music but I don't listen to the lyrics.
If you were telling me you listened to instrumental music that would be a different argument, however that is not what you do.
Your sin doesn't lie purely in the type of music you listen to, it lies in the type of lyrics you listen to. You have to be clear about that before any useful discussion takes place.
Are you serious about this question at all, do you really want to examine your actions in the light of scripture? If you are not willing to change your listening habits is it really worth while even looking at the problems with them.
If you want to deal with the real problem, I will help you. If your mind and heart is closed then I won't bother wasting my time.
I don't like your tone in that last post, if you want to dig your heels in and try to make this a hostile discussion I will leave you in your sin.
Now if you want me to discuss this with you, two brothers in Christ talking about the issue seriously then we can go ahead. If you are not serious then forget it.
I'll be away most of today but I'll get back to you.
Note. There are many areas in my life where I do things that are quetionable, I try to deal with these and break away from sinful habits. If I thought it would be helpful or if I wasn't clear about wheather something is sinful or not maybe I would ask the question here. I would be prepared to listen to the answers with an open mind.
If this is the purpose of your question then I admire you for being open about it, but on the other hand if you are not willing to admit that you might just be wrong then whats the point in the discussion.
If it is your intention to prove that I am judgemental and wrong in my views then go ahead, lets see the scripture.
God Bless
Enda -
I've made my arguments and I stand by them.
I'm confident that readers can make up their own minds.
[ June 24, 2003, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: Mike McK ] -
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Lyrical content... important. Of course, what matters is what you consider "good" lyrics. Some would continue this argument by questioning what's good and what's not. Surely room for another 50 posts on THAT subject.
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Shall I jog your memory to the "What is my sin" thread which you shut down out of nothing other than frustration?
It wasn't shut down out of frustration. I explain very plainly why it was shut down, and discerning minds have agreed with me.
Yes I do have the right to a tested and established positionon the inherent morality of music.
But your position is not tested and established. It is a new one springing from the moral upheaval of the 60's and 70's, and CCM adherents who have educated themselves on church history have had to acknowledge the "music is 'morally' neutral" argument was created by the CCM crowd.
Why? Firstly, because Scripture is totally silent on the issue.
Wrong. But we've been around and around on this before.
Secondly, because I am making no charges of sin against anyone.
Well, that's not entirely true. You certainly think I am in gross sin by speaking out against sensual worship, but that's beside the point. Where is it written that just because you are maintaining the purity of one thing or another you are absolved of the work required to prove it? It certainly is not written in the Scriptures.
The Scriptures say to "prove all things," and after having been proven good to "hold fast that which is good." 1 Thess. 5:21.
In the Church nothing—nothing—enjoys a defacto approval.
But isn't this evidence of your own worldly thinking? Wait, there's more!
...as long as you are here to spread your hate...
Isn't this the same kind of subterfuge belched by the sodomites of our day? It is not hate to say that something you are allowing is wrong. That's the world's way of talking. -
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So all music is not relaxing, we respond to various types of music in different ways.
Thus the music itself can influence how we feel. It can make us feel good or bad, relaxed or excited, happy or sad etc. etc.
Thanks for proving that music is not neutral.
God Bless
Enda -
So all music is not relaxing, we respond to various types of music in different ways.
Thus the music itself can influence how we feel. It can make us feel good or bad, relaxed or excited, happy or sad etc. etc.
Thanks for proving that music is not neutral.
God Bless
Enda </font>[/QUOTE]Um, I never said music was neutral, I said it's morally neutral. Music can certainly be relaxing or uplifitng or even sad, but none of those things are sinful or righteous in and of themselves. Thank you for proving my point and bailing just like everyone else who thought they could answer my challenge.
Of course you and I both know you were never serious. -
Who said I was bailing.
So far we have agreed that music is not neutral. It can effect how we feel.
Would it be fair to say then that it can make us angry for example?
Enda -
Well, Travelsong, here you go again.
Thankyou for siting more Scripture which knocks down your argument. Why do you think my conscience is clear in the matter?
You contend you do not have to present evidence unless you're saying something is bad, and I just cited ("cited" is spelled with a "c" BTW) Scripture that says you must prove ALL things, and you think my position is weakened. Good gravy! And you have the gall to accuse enda of having psychological problems?
When have you ever had one single thing positive, encouraging or edifying to contribute to these forums?
You mean as positive and edifying as accusing enda of having pychological problems? But here you go again making this about me. It's a common tactic of a desperate soul who knows he's losing the debate. You may have missed it, but this is a debate forum. I save my kinder and gentler communications for PM's. I'm not here to make you feel warm and fuzzy. I'm here to cast down imaginations and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God. Those who rejoice in the Truth are edified. The friends of this world are not.
I experimented with a CCM fellowship thread where you could discuss your views safe from challenge. Your response was to scorn the attempt and belittle the idea. In fact all one has to do is peruse a few of your posts to see that when you come in you bully those who oppose CCM no matter how nicely they try to communicate their convictions.
But now that you met someone who can't be bullied you want to cry "Foul!"
Gimme a break. -
In other words, if I hear a piece of music that sounds like the performer is angry, there is no possible way for me to tell what he is angry about. Music cannot communicate ideas or specific meaning. It's simply impossible.
Furthermore, if I hear music that sounds angry, it would be a conscious decision on my part to feel angry in response.That is the entire basis of accountability. Music can't make me do or feel anything I am not willing to do or feel.
For example if I am surfing the dial on my radio and here a heavy metal tune in which the music is obviously filled with some kind of angst or rage, I don't suddenly fall under a magical spell and become enraged or angst ridden.
In short, the answer to your question would be no. music cannot make me angry.
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