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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by percho, Jul 5, 2024.

  1. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places; Eph 6:12 YLT

    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Gen 1:1 NKJV

    Was, the darkness of this age, present?

    The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was[fn] on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Gen 1:2 NKJV [fn] Words in italic type have been added for clarity. They are not found in the original Hebrew or Aramaic

    Was, the darkness of this age, present?

    What brought forth, the darkness of this age? When did it begin?

    Who is said to have the power of the death? Heb 2:14
    Does death have anything to do with, the darkness of this age? I ask because of Luke 20:34,35 NKJV

    Did death exist before Adam?
     
  2. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    How can anyone suggest that there was any life before Adam, when the Bible calls Adam the FIRST MAN?

    "So it is written: The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit" - 1 Cor 15:45

    any suggestion that there was any human Created before Adam, is blatant lies and against what the Bible is very clear on

    Regarding your understanding of Genesis 1:2, it is very much flawed!

    We have in this verse, "the earth WAS without form and void...the Spirit of God WAS hovering". It is very normal, in this construction, that the word WAS is added to "darkness WAS on the face", as is so translated in every English Bible that I have seen! Words are sometimes added to make the text more readable, but this does not mean that the word or words, do not "belong" to the passage. It is not easy at times to translate from Hebrew or Greek, into another language. Trying to build a teaching from your understanding of Genesis 1:2, is fanciful!
     
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  3. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Is man the only thing that suffers, the death? I said nor asked anything about, man, pre Adam.

    When do you think and or believe, the darkness of this age, began?

    Methinks to ask that question the following should be considered; Heb 1:2 YLT in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages; Plural. Is this age of darkness in that plural? What would be another age spoken of in the Word of God? How many ages can we identify in the the Word of God.

    I can think of two right away. This age and the age to come. May be more?
     
  4. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    your understanding of Hebrews 1:2 is also faulty

    The Greek "τοὺς αἰῶνας", is here used in the plural number, as "the Universe", the totality of ALL THINGS that exist, and equivelent to "τὰ πάντα" (all things) of verse 3.

    In Hebrews 11:3, the HCSB Version reads

    "By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen has been made from things that are not visible"

    "the universe" is in the Greek, "τοὺς αἰῶνας", which is exactly how 1:2 reads, where this same Version reads:

    "In these last days, He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things and through whom He made the universe"
     
  5. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    I will ask relative to post #4 What is the date of the oldest translation that translates, "τοὺς αἰῶνας", as universe?

    I will ask again. When do you think and or believe, the darkness of this age, began?

    Will one ever move from this present age into another age?
     
  6. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Does the, "darkness of this age," have anything to do with the great dragon, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan?
     
  7. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    The Greek noun αἰών means a few things, "a space of time, as, a lifetime, generation, period of history, an indefinitely long period. an indefinitely long period, an age, eternity" (Abbott-Smith Greek lexicon)

    So, when the plural form is used, it can be understood as a number of periods as taken together. You cannot get what you are trying to do with it!

    Do you believe that there was a Creation before Genesis 1:1? or between 1:1 and 1:2?

    Regarding the plural form, "τοὺς αἰῶνας", I will give what the Greek scholar, J H Thayer says in his lexicon

    by metonymy of the container for the contained, οἱ αἰῶνες denotes the worlds, the universe, i. e. the aggregate of things contained in time (on the plural cf. Winers Grammar, 176 (166); Buttmann, 24 (21)): Heb_1:2; Heb_11:3

    Likewise, Abbott-Smith

    οἱ αἰ., the worlds, the universe, "the sum of the periods of time, including all that is manifested in them": Heb_1:2; Heb_11:3

    And, another Greek scholar, A T Robertson

    The worlds (tous aiōnas). “The ages” (secula, Vulgate). See Heb_11:3 also where tous aiōnas = ton kosmon (the world) or the universe like ta panta (the all things) in Heb_1:3; Rom_11:36; Col_1:16. The original sense of aiōn (from aei, always) occurs in Heb_6:20, but here “by metonomy of the container for the contained” (Thayer) for “the worlds” (the universe) as in lxx, Philo, Josephus.
     
  8. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    yes, and no doubt the sin and wickedness of humans
     
  9. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
    12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Eph 6
     
  10. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    I think/believe there could have been and ordered system between the these two if 2 Peter 3:5 is relative to the condition of the earth in Genesis 1:2.

    I think/believe the sin of the devil of 1 John 3:8 took place before Genesis 1:2

    2 Peter 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

    I think/believe the use of the word, "world," there implies something of order had perished.

    I think/believe this was the result of spiritual wickedness in high places. Eph 6:12

    And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Gen 1:2 <<< Did, at this moment, The great dragon, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, need to be destroyed?

    How was God going to destroy the great dragon, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan?

    What would be required, relative to God's plan to destroy the great dragon, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan and his works?

    1 John 3:8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

    If I am wrong then I am wrong and I do not mind being told I am wrong. However that is how it appears to me, what the Word of God states.
     
  11. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    you are reading too much into what the Bible says!
     
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