Featured A carryover thread from 'The Children whom God hath given me .'

In the OT angels appeared even to the unsaved--Pharaoh of Egypt and Abimilech of Gerar--Genesis 12 and 20. Thus the presence of angel doesn't indicate that the person is saved. God is not committed to sending his angels to saved individuals only. In fact he sent an angel to divinely obstruct the path of a donkey which in turn would make the donkey speak to a false prophet. The presence of an angel or an angel coming to him in a vision, or God speaking to him through an angel, etc. is no guarantee of salvation. It happened in OT times, and as you say, this was a time of transition.

Paul's experience was totally different.
He met the Lord on the way to Damascus. As soon as the Lord spoke to him, he said "LORD, who art thou," and then, "LORD, what will thou have me to do." Going from one who possibly participated in HIS crucifixion and also in the stoning of Jesus to calling Christ Lord and submitting to him immediately is astounding. He was saved right there and then.
"If thou shalt call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, thou shalt be saved," and he did.

Other examples given involve the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1Cor.12) which I believe have ceased. They were also the signs of an apostle (Heb.2:3,4).

I agree, and that is why I believe the Word and faith in the word must precede both.

I don't see where the Bible teaches that. Faith comes by hearing the Word.

Faith is only a spiritual gift to spiritual people, not to the unsaved. God would not give spiritual gifts to the unregenerate/unsaved. That is why it is not a gift from God. God does not give one the faith to believe, otherwise it would be like forcing salvation on them.

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." NOT
Believe (with the faith of God) on the Lord Jesus Christ. That doesn't even make sense, nor is that teaching found in scripture. The Lord wants us to believe in him.
Over and over again he said to those he healed:
Thy faith has made you whole. Be it according to thy faith. He always related healing according to "their faith."

Faith is simply confidence or trust. It is the object of the faith that is important. Faith needs an object.
Consider Jesus. Is he the object of one's faith? That is what counts.
There is nothing mystical about faith.

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
--Jesus clearly tells them to believe on Him or Him that sent Christ specifically. That was their obligation. Just as he said to everyone else, it was their faith that counted.
Just 6 verses later he says this:
Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
--You must come to Jesus.
--You must believe on him. Christ doesn't do the coming and the believing.

Also Phpps. 2:13,
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
--Paul is speaking to and about Christians. This has nothing to do with salvation.

Rom. 9:16,
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
--The greater context is God's dealings with Israel, the former verse speaking of Moses and the following verse speaking of Pharaoh.
The subject here is the sovereignty of God, not the origin of faith.

Heb. 12:2,
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
--As previously mentioned, the faith in this verse is our tangible faith, the faith that we contend for.

Rom. 12:3.
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
--Think of the first two verses here. Paul is writing only to Christians. He then speaks of spiritual gifts.

Yes, and so did they.

Act 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Act 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
Act 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
--Semi-Pelagianism? Really?
Was the Holy Spirit involved here or not? They actively refused the conviction of the Holy Spirit, even as Stephen said they would:

Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

 

dhk says this;

another denial of the supernatural salvation.....he has man saving himself.

 

SovereignGrace

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I heard a converted Muslim preach the other night. He stated that he knows many have had an angel come to them and reveal to them that they should seek out a certain person who will tell them of Christ. Like Cornelius he further stated that He knows folks in that area where that has occurred.

Now I am even skeptical of such things but God does have that power and ability.

We never know when an angel may be present the writer of Hebrews states.

Paul said An Angel from Heaven could preach the Gospel. So it could very easily be that god does send His angels to those in the world that man hasn't been able to reach.

We can fairly well be see that those who were scattered at the tower of Babel consisted of the believing and non-believing alike. The believing had a belief in the savior who was to come. That is what brought them salvation. Those in our world who are descendants from those scattered could have trusted in the one who is coming and like those in Acts who had not heard were still saved. But God sent messengers to them to tell them of Christ.

If God used different manners to speak in times past He can still speak to those whom can't or haven't been reached in those same divers manners.

 

Three types of people exist in this world today:

Sarkikos = those who operate out of the SARX that is the flesh. Most often translated as carnal. thus the believer walking in sin under the influence of the Old Nature. Paul uses the term in 1 Corinthians 3:1 as carnal yet he says he speaks to those in Corinth as babes in Christ. Meaning they haven't grown spiritually and have become Sarkikos or fleshly yet again. They didn't lose their salvation but they had failed to remain filled with the Spirit. They failed in the Christian way of life:

The word for Spirit is Pnuema and that leads to the second type here,

Pnuematikos=Those who are operating under the Spirit that is influenced and filled or under the control of the Holy Spirit 1 Corinthians 3:1 those who are Spiritual.

Then we have those who are Psychikos=natural used in 1 Corinthians 2:14. Belonging to the natural characteristics of man. That is the unsaved.

 

Is this the gospel we are speaking of?

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Matt 24:14

And is the following speaking of the same thing?

How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. Heb 2:3,5

 

There are only two men......Spiritual......Carnal.....Romans 8 is quite clear.

The heresy know as the teaching of the "carnal christian".....needs to be set aside.

 

Do you follow the book of Mormon then? If not why not? Didn't you feel the burning in your bosom?...

 

According to Paul their are the Sarchicos=Carnel who are babes in Christ and living after the flesh as was the church at Corinth. There are also spiritual those who are filled with the Spirit as Ephesians 5:18 tells us to be filled with the Spirit. There are natural men that those who don't understand spiritual things because they are not saved.

Now their are two divisions of man:
Saved who are either;
1. Of the Sarx = fleshly belivers who are following the Old Sin Nature
2. Pnumatickos = Beliveres operating under the control and influence of the Holy Spirit.

Unsaved those are the psychicos= natural people operating under the Old sin Nature and having not believed on the Lord operating entirely in flesh with no Spiritual life.

 

The command of the Great Commission has never been rescinded.
The question is not of being drawn, but rather hearing. If one is not drawn it is because he has rejected after having heard. If he has not heard then: shall his blood not be upon our hands for not giving him the gospel that he should have heard. We have been entrusted with the Great Commission.

With that in mind, consider also such events as this one:

http://www.worthynews.com/20283-armenian-turks-convert-back-to-christianity

When a person wants to hear the gospel, or the truth about salvation, God will provide a way for them to hear that truth.

 

I have no idea what you are speaking of, but then again sometimes I'm better off not knowing!

I do know what have believed and am persuaded the He is able to keep that (my soul) which I have committed unto Him against that day.

Christ and the Holy Spirit called me to salvation and I answered that call. I know not what the Mormans teach about all of salvation, I do know that they believe they can pay and pray people out of Hell and that is definitely unbiblical.

 

Faith is faith. Everyone has faith. You treat faith as if it is mystical.

Where does the Bible use the term "saving faith," and what is it?
Faith is confidence, trust. We all have confidence and trust in someone and even in some things. I wouldn't buy a clunky old car if I didn't have the faith/confidence/trust that it would get me from point A to point B without breaking down. Faith is faith. It is the object of the faith that is important.

When you speak of "living faith," and "dead faith" you attribute mystical qualities to an intangible making it personal which it is not. It is not a living entity. Nor is it like electricity. It is simply confidence in the promises or word of another.

A child may have confidence in mankind in general and be very friendly and out-going. Then something terrible might happen (molestation by a relative). His "faith" in mankind may be shattered for a good part of his life. He may become withdrawn and sullen. Does that make faith either living or dead? No. But it does destroy or shatter or weaken (the latter being the best word) his faith or confidence in people in general.

A person must learn the facts of the gospel, if he hasn't grown up in a Christian family. Once he knows them he must accept them by faith--personally apply them to his own life. It is not mystical. Regeneration doesn't come first. The acceptance of this message by faith must be received (through conviction of the Holy Spirit), and then he will be regenerated/saved.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
Nowhere in the Bible does it teach that God gives any unsaved sinner faith.
The Bible doesn't ascribe personal attributes to faith. That is mysticism.

Faith is neither living nor is it dead. It is innnate. Everyone has faith. Jesus inferred that little children had faith. He told most that came to him that "their faith" had made them whole.

Matthew 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

Matthew 8:13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

That is a Calvinistic philosophy. It is not Scriptural. See the Scriptures above. God doesn't give faith.
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
Did God do the believing for him? No. It was his own faith. It always is.

 

Amen!........................