KenH
Well-Known Member
I agree. Then fix the federal government, don't trash the U.S. constitution.
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DOJ: Arizona Immigration Law Must Be 'Struck Down'
- Thread starter Jedi Knight
- Start date
I agree. Then fix the federal government, don't trash the U.S. constitution.
Actually any police officer can enter an indivuals name into the electronic database and know instantly whether or not they are a citizen.
All the Arizona law asks for is a driver's license.
As I said in post #5:
I am not a law enforcement officer, and so I do not know more specific techniques and knowledge that such officers may use. I can only state that officers know what they are doing, and I generally trust them to do the correct thing. I know there are some "bad cops", but most will work hard to NOT illegally and incorrectly identify someone as an ILLEGAL immigrant.
Some years back I worked in a convenience store. One day I was given a fake ID card by someone wanting to buy cigarettes. I refused the sale, based on my knowledge of what and how a valid ID card should look. (I did not try to turn the culprit over to police, as this was not part of my required duties). I am sure the police do something similar when pulling someone over for a traffic violation (and any other such reason for a police stop). If a local cop pulls someone over, discovers a fake driver's license (or a lack of one), they have the authority to "arrest" the person and investigate further. THIS IS WHAT ARIZONA'S LAW WILL DO!!! If the detained person appears to be an ILLEGAL immigrant, the Arizona cops will turn said person over to ICE for further investigation.
Bill :godisgood:
I am not a law enforcement officer, and so I do not know more specific techniques and knowledge that such officers may use. I can only state that officers know what they are doing, and I generally trust them to do the correct thing. I know there are some "bad cops", but most will work hard to NOT illegally and incorrectly identify someone as an ILLEGAL immigrant.
Some years back I worked in a convenience store. One day I was given a fake ID card by someone wanting to buy cigarettes. I refused the sale, based on my knowledge of what and how a valid ID card should look. (I did not try to turn the culprit over to police, as this was not part of my required duties). I am sure the police do something similar when pulling someone over for a traffic violation (and any other such reason for a police stop). If a local cop pulls someone over, discovers a fake driver's license (or a lack of one), they have the authority to "arrest" the person and investigate further. THIS IS WHAT ARIZONA'S LAW WILL DO!!! If the detained person appears to be an ILLEGAL immigrant, the Arizona cops will turn said person over to ICE for further investigation.
Bill :godisgood:
KenH
Well-Known Member
As long as the federal government gives the go ahead to that, it should pass muster.
ILLEGAL.........does that mean anything?
KenH
Well-Known Member
Per the U.S. constitution it is the federal government that determines legal residency.
The only way, in my opinion, to deal successfully with this immigration issue is threefold: a path to legal worker status for those immigrants that do not have it, an ongoing worker program for those desiring to come here and work, and consistent federal enforcement of tough penalties on those who employ people who do not have legal worker status after the previous two steps have been implemented.
The only way, in my opinion, to deal successfully with this immigration issue is threefold: a path to legal worker status for those immigrants that do not have it, an ongoing worker program for those desiring to come here and work, and consistent federal enforcement of tough penalties on those who employ people who do not have legal worker status after the previous two steps have been implemented.
Look at the video I posted above. Yes, the definition of legal residency rests in the Fed, however they are not defining legal residency, they are merely enforcing the legal statute. The feds have asked on many occassions for states to help enforce things like these. Such provisions have been upheld by the 9th Circuit (and other Circuit) courts.
Somebody knowledgeable help me out here. I heard today that the problem with the DOJ lawsuit is that it's Congress that has the responsibility for immigration, and that the Executive branch is responsible for executing what Congress has passed.
What the DOJ has apparently done with this lawsuit is filed it on behalf of the Federal Government, with implication that Arizona's law infringes on the Executive responsibility, not the Congressional responsibility. In fact, what was argued was that the Arizona law could be ruled as complying with Congressional responsibility in regards as providing additional resources, manpower, etc. to support Congressional mandates/laws regarding immigration.
Anyone?
What the DOJ has apparently done with this lawsuit is filed it on behalf of the Federal Government, with implication that Arizona's law infringes on the Executive responsibility, not the Congressional responsibility. In fact, what was argued was that the Arizona law could be ruled as complying with Congressional responsibility in regards as providing additional resources, manpower, etc. to support Congressional mandates/laws regarding immigration.
Anyone?
windcatcher
New Member
W/O reading through this long line of posts to pick out those I agree with or don't....
IMO,
This law suit by the federal government against the state of Arizona is a frivilous exercise of power and authority by the federal government,
designed to misuse federal funds and add further expense upon the state and local budgets of the people of Arizona,
is an executive attack upon a state for doing what it ought to protect its citizens from an invading force when the federal government is derelict in performing its own duties,
and is designed to distract the citizens of our country from more real threats presently occurring both within and from without with the subsequent aim of polarizing people and dividing them to accept open borders and illegal aliens for citizenship.
If the Arizona law is unconstitutional then the federal law, on which it is based and is cited within the state law, is unconstitutional. If one can derive 'racial profiling' from the Arizona law, then the same is true of the federal law. The legal immigrant in our country has as much a right to the same protections as our own citizens, but a vast community of illegals living within our country also present a real risk to those who are legally here and law abiding... to their jobs, to their attempts to merge into our culture, and can be a coercive force upon their families and especially their children and young folk, so it is in their own best interest that our immigration laws are enforced.
The fact is, we already have laws concerning illegal immigration and we have a sorry executive department of justice which takes more joy in prosecuting its own citizens (some for trivial failures) than supporting and executing its own laws for protecting our country...... and, for that matter, have had for years and years. While this is an Obama administration act of executive and judicial aggression against a state...... all previous administrations back to Reagan have been derelict in enforcing our immigration laws to any measure. The few raids and demonstrations of enforcement which occurred during the Bush administration, had more successful consequences in both producing a bill in Congress which was supposed to close our southern border and provide funding for that.... and heightening our awareness and polarizing sympathies for those families which might be broken by deportation. The wall of China was built in a year and yet the federal government has done little to carry out and finish the fence that it started..... a fence, which, in some cases, is wholly inadequate as a fence. See here: http://americanborderpatrol.com/
The hard truth is our government's current domestic policy is working against the interest and stability of its own people. As in the BP oil spill, it is providing cover and support to limit the information and the power which the people should have a right to to make choices and to participate and protect their own welfare. It is distinctly propelling 'groups' of people from inclusion into citizens at large by giving distinctive groups (can you say 'profiled') notoriety and privilege while failing to uphold the equality for all..... can I say the dismissal by the doj of the voting rights suit, or the recent and strange priority of NASA to promote muslim contributions to science etc., the recognition of gays and muslim holidays at the WH but casual dismissal of a largely Christian supported 'day of prayer'?
The end result is a working to divide us: To create divisions which prevent cohesion: To create or add emphasis to our differences and enlarge a spirit of distrust amongst us. Our cities already have their gangs. Our families are already stretched thin... parents trying to parent children but both having to work to make ends meet.... having little time left for family and much less time availabe to study and know and actively participate or resist the changes going on in their world around them. We divide along economic lines: Those successful 'dis' those who've tried and failed without knowing or respecting the differences in fortune. Those who are educated 'dis' those who are not.... as though it is solely their fault.... with out a willingness to go and teach and help 'them' learn and catch up. Those who've given and given (and I'm talking passively about taxes here) resent those who 'take' without becoming a part of 'their community' and a power within which can help to change the things that can... and wisdom to know the difference. 'Tis no wonder that activist, like Obama's in the world, and ACORN, and other groups get a toe hole and then a foot hole and finally have the whole shebang- grip on group-think in communities across our country... race against race, privilege against privilege, even faith against faith; a people full of uncertainty of what binds us together as Americans and filled with government sponsored and paid for spirits of distrust.
This last is the fullfilling aim of the hierarchy we've elected to power and those who've kept a harder leash on them than our vote: The 29 Palms Military Survey, does little to answer the question 'would our military turn on US civilians in an order which violates the constitution. See here: http://www.knology.net/~bilrum/UN29palms.htm
Perhaps the most difficult and provoking duty of our time as Americans.... is to figure out and support that which is good and necessary for the good of ourselves and our country, to encourage and keep the trust at whatever level we can among ourselves with and to each other (whtether citizen or legal immigrant or racially distinctive or mixed... or whatever other grounds we are otherwise 'divided' by rumours and forces of propaganda outside of our own God given intincts) and try, as perpostous as it may sound to others, to educate and inform them about the illusions being perpetuated around them by these powerful forces within our government and media. Also, this does not mean to neglect the spread of the gospel and the knee work of prayer for our people (meaning all within) and our country.
IMO,
This law suit by the federal government against the state of Arizona is a frivilous exercise of power and authority by the federal government,
designed to misuse federal funds and add further expense upon the state and local budgets of the people of Arizona,
is an executive attack upon a state for doing what it ought to protect its citizens from an invading force when the federal government is derelict in performing its own duties,
and is designed to distract the citizens of our country from more real threats presently occurring both within and from without with the subsequent aim of polarizing people and dividing them to accept open borders and illegal aliens for citizenship.
If the Arizona law is unconstitutional then the federal law, on which it is based and is cited within the state law, is unconstitutional. If one can derive 'racial profiling' from the Arizona law, then the same is true of the federal law. The legal immigrant in our country has as much a right to the same protections as our own citizens, but a vast community of illegals living within our country also present a real risk to those who are legally here and law abiding... to their jobs, to their attempts to merge into our culture, and can be a coercive force upon their families and especially their children and young folk, so it is in their own best interest that our immigration laws are enforced.
The fact is, we already have laws concerning illegal immigration and we have a sorry executive department of justice which takes more joy in prosecuting its own citizens (some for trivial failures) than supporting and executing its own laws for protecting our country...... and, for that matter, have had for years and years. While this is an Obama administration act of executive and judicial aggression against a state...... all previous administrations back to Reagan have been derelict in enforcing our immigration laws to any measure. The few raids and demonstrations of enforcement which occurred during the Bush administration, had more successful consequences in both producing a bill in Congress which was supposed to close our southern border and provide funding for that.... and heightening our awareness and polarizing sympathies for those families which might be broken by deportation. The wall of China was built in a year and yet the federal government has done little to carry out and finish the fence that it started..... a fence, which, in some cases, is wholly inadequate as a fence. See here: http://americanborderpatrol.com/
The hard truth is our government's current domestic policy is working against the interest and stability of its own people. As in the BP oil spill, it is providing cover and support to limit the information and the power which the people should have a right to to make choices and to participate and protect their own welfare. It is distinctly propelling 'groups' of people from inclusion into citizens at large by giving distinctive groups (can you say 'profiled') notoriety and privilege while failing to uphold the equality for all..... can I say the dismissal by the doj of the voting rights suit, or the recent and strange priority of NASA to promote muslim contributions to science etc., the recognition of gays and muslim holidays at the WH but casual dismissal of a largely Christian supported 'day of prayer'?
The end result is a working to divide us: To create divisions which prevent cohesion: To create or add emphasis to our differences and enlarge a spirit of distrust amongst us. Our cities already have their gangs. Our families are already stretched thin... parents trying to parent children but both having to work to make ends meet.... having little time left for family and much less time availabe to study and know and actively participate or resist the changes going on in their world around them. We divide along economic lines: Those successful 'dis' those who've tried and failed without knowing or respecting the differences in fortune. Those who are educated 'dis' those who are not.... as though it is solely their fault.... with out a willingness to go and teach and help 'them' learn and catch up. Those who've given and given (and I'm talking passively about taxes here) resent those who 'take' without becoming a part of 'their community' and a power within which can help to change the things that can... and wisdom to know the difference. 'Tis no wonder that activist, like Obama's in the world, and ACORN, and other groups get a toe hole and then a foot hole and finally have the whole shebang- grip on group-think in communities across our country... race against race, privilege against privilege, even faith against faith; a people full of uncertainty of what binds us together as Americans and filled with government sponsored and paid for spirits of distrust.
This last is the fullfilling aim of the hierarchy we've elected to power and those who've kept a harder leash on them than our vote: The 29 Palms Military Survey, does little to answer the question 'would our military turn on US civilians in an order which violates the constitution. See here: http://www.knology.net/~bilrum/UN29palms.htm
Perhaps the most difficult and provoking duty of our time as Americans.... is to figure out and support that which is good and necessary for the good of ourselves and our country, to encourage and keep the trust at whatever level we can among ourselves with and to each other (whtether citizen or legal immigrant or racially distinctive or mixed... or whatever other grounds we are otherwise 'divided' by rumours and forces of propaganda outside of our own God given intincts) and try, as perpostous as it may sound to others, to educate and inform them about the illusions being perpetuated around them by these powerful forces within our government and media. Also, this does not mean to neglect the spread of the gospel and the knee work of prayer for our people (meaning all within) and our country.
Why would you wait to crack down on employers of illegal aliens until after your anmesty program?
KenH
Well-Known Member
I want to see the legal status set for those who want to be here legally first. Those who don't participate in what is offered or disregard it after this has been set in place should not be employed and the way to stop people from coming here illegally is to hit employers so hard is they hire them that none but the most brazen of employer toward the law would attempt to do so. No jobs for illegal immigrants = very, very few illegal immigrants. Also, we do not have the money and manpower to arrest and deport 12 million illegal immigrants so we have to take care of their legal status first and reduce that number down to a managaeable level for federal law enforcement.
You need to get familiar with the federal government's partner program whereby they've been using State and local police to help them with federal law enforcement. The very government that's suing Arizona has been working with several of Arizona's law enforcement agencies in direct immigration law enforcement work. What Arizona has done independently doesn't infringe upon nor attempt to change anything about federal immigration law - it isn't even direct enforcement. All it does is provide for handing over persons that are illegal aliens to the federal government for further processing. Arizona isn't charging anyone nor prosecuting anyone nor deporting anyone based on any immigration law. If anything, the federal government should be pleased with that and should be encouraging other States - especially the sanctuary States and cities - to do likewise. All the noise against what Arizona has done is based largely on ignorance of what they've done or, more likely, a general desire that immigration law not be enforced. I even suspect the Obama administration is motivated by the potential votes it can get from supporters of illegal immigration or even for the possible extension of voting rights to illegal aliens.
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... and nothing about the Arizona law changes or attempts to change this. Arizona goes to the federal government to determine the actual status of the person and turns them over to them for handling.
No, the way to deal with it is to provide a rapid path back home to each and every person who is in the country illegally!
The law already provides a means for people to come here legally after they have been approved to do so. Many people have followed this process over many years. We don't need to make mass exceptions for the millions of Mexicans and others that have willfully chosen to disobey our law. All that will do is nail down the precedence - once more - that the law really doesn't have to be followed. To do otherwise is to give in the law breakers and we might as well then just open the borders all together.
That was a very good post and expressed a solid position on the issues!
That is right and we are under no obligation to let those who have broken our laws entering this country to stay permanently.
KenH
Well-Known Member
And where is the manpower and funding tomcome from to carry out your plan on 12 million people?
A disingenuous question. Everyone knows that if you cut off all means of money and support they will go back home on their own. Even those who have children born here.