The "CHURCH"

[Tom Butler]

The FULL Body of Christ on this earth is ALL of the saved peoples that populate individual Churches, regardless baptist, methodist etc its ALL those who are saved by Grace of God...

Add to THAT number ALL those currently in heaven with Lord...

that amount is the "Church of Christ!"

You might be seeing me stating that "Universal Church" like "Catholic" NOT that..

NOT a denomination or Church per say

IS all those who are in 'Church" Body of Christ in heaven and on earth!

You're describing the Kingdom, not the "Church." They are not the same.

 

[JesusFan]

You're describing the Kingdom, not the "Church." They are not the same.

Church = Body of Christ saved persons living and "dead" from pentecost until right now!

 

[Winman]

And it's so invisible, we can't find it, and have no idea where it assembles.

That's why many folks like it. :thumbs:

 

[JesusFan]

That's why many folks like it. :thumbs:

Assembles daily in heaven and upon the Earth!

I cant see the Heaven branch, and none of us can see even the earthly, unless you can see into "hearts!"

 

[DHK]

Church = Body of Christ saved persons living and "dead" from pentecost until right now!

Can you find that definition in the Bible?
The word for church, ekklesia, is assembly. It has no other Greek meaning.
That is the way it should have been translated each and every time. There are some translations that have done that.

It is impossible to have an unassembled assembly. It is a contradiction.
You may call it a kingdom, the bride of Christ, the family of God, but not a church. "Church" means "assembly," and can only be used in a local sense as in a local church. It cannot refer to denomination, universal church, invisible church, RCC, or any other such church. Such meanings are relatively new. You won't find those meanings in the Greek. The word means "assembly."

 

[JesusFan]

Can you find that definition in the Bible?
The word for church, ekklesia, is assembly. It has no other Greek meaning.
That is the way it should have been translated each and every time. There are some translations that have done that.

It is impossible to have an unassembled assembly. It is a contradiction.
You may call it a kingdom, the bride of Christ, the family of God, but not a church. "Church" means "assembly," and can only be used in a local sense as in a local church. It cannot refer to denomination, universal church, invisible church, RCC, or any other such church. Such meanings are relatively new. You won't find those meanings in the Greek. The word means "assembly."

So we don't get "bogged down" in discussing semetics here...

How about local assembly, and Universal assembly of the believers?

Because the Church(assembly) would be in total of all of the Invisible Church that assembles on earth at any given point in time!

 

[DHK]

So we don't get "bogged down" in discussing semetics here...

How about local assembly, and Universal assembly of the believers?

Because the Church(assembly) would be in total of all of the Invisible Church that assembles on earth at any given point in time!

An assembly assembles. A congregation congregates. Let's get a hold of our English words and use them properly. Words have meanings.
An assembly or congregation must have a place to meet, people to gather, and in our definition: a preacher to preach, deacons to deak, ushers to usher, treasurers to treasure, secretaries to secretar, etc. They are real people with real functions and gifts that gather together in a real place. They are not invisible. They are not scattered. They are assembled.

The only time that will happen and be true of all believers is in heaven.

 

[JesusFan]

An assembly assembles. A congregation congregates. Let's get a hold of our English words and use them properly. Words have meanings.
An assembly or congregation must have a place to meet, people to gather, and in our definition: a preacher to preach, deacons to deak, ushers to usher, treasurers to treasure, secretaries to secretar, etc. They are real people with real functions and gifts that gather together in a real place. They are not invisible. They are not scattered. They are assembled.

The only time that will happen and be true of all believers is in heaven.

So there are different local assemblies meeting every Sunday in your town, some have Baptists on Door, others methodists, others Luthereyn etc?

You do see that there is an "invisible" number of saints in each local Church? the saved and lost gathering in same group?

 

[DHK]

So there are different local assemblies meeting every Sunday in your town, some have Baptists on Door, others methodists, others Luthereyn etc?

Definition of a church:

A church is a local assembly of regenerated baptized believers who have voluntarily associated themselves together for the purpose of obeying the Great Commission and carrying out the two ordinances of Christ (Baptism by immersion and the Lord's Supper).

By definition a Biblical local church has only saved baptized members.

By definition those churches which are apostate or liberal or not Biblically based are not churches.

 

[JesusFan]

Definition of a church:

A church is a local assembly of regenerated baptized believers who have voluntarily associated themselves together for the purpose of obeying the Great Commission and carrying out the two ordinances of Christ (Baptism by immersion and the Lord's Supper).

By definition a Biblical local church has only saved baptized members.

By definition those churches which are apostate or liberal or not Biblically based are not churches.

But there are regenerated saints in even RC Church and liberal churches, some even not water baptized!

So they would be saints assembled together in midst of a larger assembly of unsaved!

 

[glfredrick]

Can you find that definition in the Bible?
The word for church, ekklesia, is assembly. It has no other Greek meaning.
That is the way it should have been translated each and every time. There are some translations that have done that.

It is impossible to have an unassembled assembly. It is a contradiction.
You may call it a kingdom, the bride of Christ, the family of God, but not a church. "Church" means "assembly," and can only be used in a local sense as in a local church. It cannot refer to denomination, universal church, invisible church, RCC, or any other such church. Such meanings are relatively new. You won't find those meanings in the Greek. The word means "assembly."

Your proposition has already been proven false by Scripture cited in a post above.

 

[DHK]

But there are regenerated saints in even RC Church and liberal churches, some even not water baptized!

So they would be saints assembled together in midst of a larger assembly of unsaved!

You don't make sense. They are not assembled anywhere (Biblically). They might as well be assembled at Starbucks (drinking coffee). Technically it is the Roman Catholic Organization, not "church." It does not fit the Biblical definition of a church. It is not an assembly of baptized (immersed) regenerated individuals gathered together for the purpose of obeying the Great Commission and remembering the Lord's Supper.
It doesn't matter where these believer's meet with others. If it is not a Biblical local church they are being disobedient to the Lord, in just the same way as a person who refuses to be baptized, or refuses to pray or study God's word. If you are truly a believer in Christ you will obey His commandments.

 

[DHK]

Your proposition has already been proven false by Scripture cited in a post above.

What Scripture?

 

[JesusFan]

You don't make sense. They are not assembled anywhere (Biblically). They might as well be assembled at Starbucks (drinking coffee). Technically it is the Roman Catholic Organization, not "church." It does not fit the Biblical definition of a church. It is not an assembly of baptized (immersed) regenerated individuals gathered together for the purpose of obeying the Great Commission and remembering the Lord's Supper.
It doesn't matter where these believer's meet with others. If it is not a Biblical local church they are being disobedient to the Lord, in just the same way as a person who refuses to be baptized, or refuses to pray or study God's word. If you are truly a believer in Christ you will obey His commandments.

Which "Church" would those be in tjhan that do not belong to a local assembly of believers as of today? To those not yet baptised?

There HAS to be a name for the Christians that make up Body of Chrsit upon earth, the "Church!"

God JUST sees His Church/Body and Bride of Christ, not just local assembly of believers!

As He views us in the Body as a corporate entity, which has all of those local churches in it!

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Those who focus solely on the local church & cannot see the Body of Christ/Church have a great misunderstanding of the nature of the church. We ARE the church, whether assembled or not. The church assembles together. It does not cease to exist when we are parted. Men deny the Church because they cannot control it. Local churches are under the control of men who are able to determine with whom they will & will not associate. The true church is not a physical entity that can be so manipulated. God is the creator & arbiter of baptism into His Church, not men.
I've never understood how intelligent men are able to accept the deity & humanity of Christ as diametric yet coexistent truths, but cannot grasp the concept of a Body of Christ/Church made up of all believers yet visible when we assemble in our local communities.
John baptized with water, Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit. The one is merely a figure of the true baptism into the Body. Why do men so focus on the figure & place great weight upon their ability to control it, while completely dismissing the true baptism which is not of men's hands; but of God's? It is about religious control by men.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

The Baptism in the Holy Spirit
Mark 1:8, Acts 2:1-4, John 15:26 & 6:7 The church began at the first baptism (indwelling) in the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 3:11 Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit: future tense
John 14:16-20 Jesus describing “the day” of the first Spirit baptism
Luke 24:44-49 Evangelism to start in Jerusalem, wait there for the baptism of the Spirit
Acts 11:15 The Spirit fell at the beginning of the Church
Ephesians 2:8-22 All believers are the household, habitation, and temple of God through the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 4:4-6; Acts 11:16, 18:24-26, 19:1-5 The “one baptism” is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, not the baptism of John. His baptism was a type of the inward baptism.
1 Corinthians 12:12-28 All believers baptized into one body

Christ is the Head of the church
Ephesians 1:19-23 God set Christ as the Head of the body/church after His ascension.
Colossians 1:18 Jesus is the Head of the Body, the church.
Ephesians 2:20 The New Testament apostles and prophets are the foundation of the Church; not churches.

 

[glfredrick]

What Scripture?

Since you give no credence to the great response in this post above, http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1707552&postcount=6, I will offer a few direct Scriptures to refute your erroneous position. Below are DIRECT references to the universal church. I will next also show some indirect references:

Matt 16:17-18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Acts 2:47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

Acts 9:31 So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria had peace and was being built up. And walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it multiplied.

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.

1 Corinthians 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Ephesians 1:22–23 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

Ephesians 5:25–27 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.

Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.

Hebrews 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,


Indirect references to the church universal:


John 15:2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. ...
John 15:6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

Romans 11:19–22 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

Romans 14:10-11 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess to God.”

Ephesians 2:19–22 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling...

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

Hebrews 12:22–24 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

1 Peter 2:5 you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Revelation 5:9-10 And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.”

Revelation 14:6-7 Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people. And he said with a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come, and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

Revelation 14:12-13 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”

Revelation 15:3-4 And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, “Great and amazing are your deeds, O Lord God the Almighty! Just and true are your ways, O King of the nations! Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship you, for your righteous acts have been revealed.”


Revelation 19:6-9 Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the roar of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, crying out, “Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.”

Of course, you may choose to ignore all these very clear Scriptures, that is your business, but I take heed to them, wanting to be one of the ones standing before the throne of God with the multitudes that make up the church that Jesus Christ said that He would build. Those who radically separate themselves from all of God's people may find themselves separated eventually and eternally...

 

[JesusFan]

Since you give no credence to the great response in this post above, http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1707552&postcount=6, I will offer a few direct Scriptures to refute your erroneous position. Below are DIRECT references to the universal church. I will next also show some indirect references:

Matt 16:17-18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Acts 2:47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

Acts 9:31 So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria had peace and was being built up. And walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it multiplied.

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.

1 Corinthians 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Ephesians 1:22–23 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

Ephesians 5:25–27 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.

Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.

Hebrews 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,


Indirect references to the church universal:


John 15:2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. ...
John 15:6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

Romans 11:19–22 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

Romans 14:10-11 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess to God.”

Ephesians 2:19–22 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling...

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

Hebrews 12:22–24 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

1 Peter 2:5 you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Revelation 5:9-10 And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.”

Revelation 14:6-7 Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people. And he said with a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come, and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

Revelation 14:12-13 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”

Revelation 15:3-4 And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, “Great and amazing are your deeds, O Lord God the Almighty! Just and true are your ways, O King of the nations! Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship you, for your righteous acts have been revealed.”


Revelation 19:6-9 Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the roar of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, crying out, “Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.”

Of course, you may choose to ignore all these very clear Scriptures, that is your business, but I take heed to them, wanting to be one of the ones standing before the throne of God with the multitudes that make up the church that Jesus Christ said that He would build. Those who radically separate themselves from all of God's people may find themselves separated eventually and eternally...

IF you asked God what is the Church, wouldn't he reply its the Body of Christ, his Bride,made up of ALL saved persons, regardles IF even baptized, part of a local assemblt etc?

Believe that it IS important to be a Water baptized believer membership in as local Church, but my citizen is already in the Church Universal! heavenly citizenship, so to speak...

 

[michael-acts17:11]

IF you asked God what is the Church, wouldn't he reply its the Body of Christ, his Bride,made up of ALL saved persons, regardles IF even baptized, part of a local assemblt etc?

Believe that it IS important to be a Water baptized believer membership in as local Church, but my citizen is already in the Church Universal! heavenly citizenship, so to speak...

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[DHK]

Which "Church" would those be in tjhan that do not belong to a local assembly of believers as of today? To those not yet baptised?

I wasn't baptized nor a member of any assembly for two years after I was saved. There is no such thing as universal Church. I did not belong to a church. I belonged to the family of God, the bride of Christ, but not any imaginary Church or assembly. No such thing exists. There is no such thing as an unassembled assembly.

There HAS to be a name for the Christians that make up Body of Chrsit upon earth, the "Church!"

No, the family of God. "Church" means "assembly." You cannot have an assembly that cannot assemble. Why do you try to force definitions upon a word when you know they won't fit?

God JUST sees His Church/Body and Bride of Christ, not just local assembly of believers!

A church is a local assembly.
The Bride of Christ includes all believers.
The word "church" means assembly and therefore can never include all believers except in heaven when all believers will someday be gathered together in one assembly. Lose the tradition and start thinking straight. Words have meanings.

As He views us in the Body as a corporate entity, which has all of those local churches in it!

Is this mysticism? Churches are local. Period. The word means assembly or congregation. Why are you trying to conjure up some mystical meaning to the word ekklesia which doesn't exist? It is impossible to have an unassembled assembly. Who takes up the offering in this universal church? Please answer.