A Death Knell for Entreprenuership

[InTheLight]

The original answer I gave was correct as to the question asked and the information given. It looks like the military has tied the hands of our boys and put them in a greater harms way them is needed. If a speeding vehicle was approaching a check point and showing signs of not stopping when it is clearly marked check point in a war zone and the duty officer or guard has to wait until fired on the take lethal action to stop the vehicle then the military training is flawed.

From the original post by Don:

Consider this as military or civilian police. You've been assigned duty at an entry control point....

I don't see a war zone mentioned. I see the scenario applying to military police or CIVILIAN police. I interpreted it to mean a checkpoint at a military base, i.e. the main gate entrance to the base. Nothing about a foreign country in a war zone got remotely near my thinking process.

I wonder why that thought occurred to you?

 

[Havensdad]

That is not what I said. I said I would not serve under such foolish rules. You need to read what is written.

I did. You said you would not fulfill your obligations in this circumstance. Thus if you had already enlisted, and the rules were put in place, you would refuse the order to serve at the post, or would not follow the orders. You stated this view plainly.

 

[mandym]

Yet, the guard may be justified in his refusal to shoot. What is the nature of the post that "requires" one to shoot? And don't forget: we're talking about the use of deadly force, to be used in the defense of others or self; what is it about the vehicle that presents a threat to others or yourself?

Use of force can also be used to protect property in certain situations.

 

[Havensdad]

Use of force can also be used to protect property in certain situations.

In Texas, if someone steals your TV, and is running away with it, you can kill them. That one took me by surprise when I was getting my handgun license...

 

[freeatlast]

I did. You said you would not fulfill your obligations in this circumstance. Thus if you had already enlisted, and the rules were put in place, you would refuse the order to serve at the post, or would not follow the orders. You stated this view plainly.

As is your usual manner you add to wht others post. I would not serve at all under those circumstances.

 

[Don]

Havensdad - Sorry, but Freeatlast mentioned that he would advise the military to use foreign fighters; in other words, he did not say that he would disobey orders.

I'm gonna have to check into that stolen property law; that took me by surprise, too.

Mandy - yep, you're correct; but are we talking about the owner of the property, or the ones whose job is to protect and serve?

Free - reference InTheLight's post. I posited the original post with the statement he identied: Military or civilian. I also specifically said "entry control point," not "checkpoint." Does this change your position at all?

Now, let's take your assumption that it's a military checkpoint overseas, say in Iraq or Afghanistan: Who's in the car? Do they understand what you're saying? Did you know that our standard American hand signal for stop (open hand, similar to the "heil hitler" gesture) does not mean "stop" in the Middle East? So you follow the order to shoot, because you used a hand signal that doesn't mean what you thought it meant, and you kill the 5-year old daughter in the back seat; but hey, you were just folowing orders, right?

 

[freeatlast]

Havensdad - Sorry, but Freeatlast mentioned that he would advise the military to use foreign fighters; in other words, he did not say that he would disobey orders.

I'm gonna have to check into that stolen property law; that took me by surprise, too.

Mandy - yep, you're correct; but are we talking about the owner of the property, or the ones whose job is to protect and serve?

Free - reference InTheLight's post. I posited the original post with the statement he identied: Military or civilian. I also specifically said "entry control point," not "checkpoint." Does this change your position at all?

Now, let's take your assumption that it's a military checkpoint overseas, say in Iraq or Afghanistan: Who's in the car? Do they understand what you're saying? Did you know that our standard American hand signal for stop (open hand, similar to the "heil hitler" gesture) does not mean "stop" in the Middle East? So you follow the order to shoot, because you used a hand signal that doesn't mean what you thought it meant, and you kill the 5-year old daughter in the back seat; but hey, you were just folowing orders, right?

It does not have to be an owner of the property. Last year a man killed two men who broke into his neighbors property and they were all running away while a cop was setting there watching the whole thing while this neighbor shot them and he was not charged with any crime.

 

[Havensdad]

As is your usual manner you add to wht others post. I would not serve at all under those circumstances.

What if the policy was changed after you had enlisted? Would you disobey the orders concerning justified shooting? Or would you obey? Or would you disobey the orders to man the post?

 

[freeatlast]

What if the policy was changed after you had enlisted? Would you disobey the orders concerning justified shooting? Or would you obey? Or would you disobey the orders to man the post?

The question has no value in reagards to the OP.

 

[Don]

I think FreeAtLast has answered the questions.

To get this back to the point of the thread: the essence of the discussion here is, when do laws cross the threshold of legality and morality, much less common sense? On one side, we have those that say that requiring kindergartners to obtain business permits is excessive; on the other side, we have those that say obey all laws and orders, no matter what.

And neither side appears to be swaying the other.

Quote: "If [1Lt William] Calley was guilty of anything it was only following orders 'a bit too diligently.'"

 

[Havensdad]

The question has no value in reagards to the OP.

GREAT dodge!