Baptism in the Spirit

[The Biblicist]

I thought you said "goodbye"?

This is a good bye for me. - Moriah

Matthew 28:19 say, “baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” Water baptism is symbolic; it is a pledge to God, for the remission of sins.

Show us scrpture where God's Word says baptism is a "pledge"? Not your personal opinion but scripture! Not your excuses but scritpure?

You demand scripture from everyone else when they make statements so give scripture or you are a hypocrit!

Read what Acts 8:16 says, “because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus”

Show in this text where "baptism in the Spirit" is spoken of? The Holy Spirit came "upon" Old Testament saints. The Holy Spirit "filled" John the Baptist from His womb but neither of these acts by the Holy Spirit is the baptism in the Spirit because it Christ not the Spirit that administers the baptism in the Spirit. Acts 8:16 says "come UPON" not "baptize in".

Acts 8:16 shows that the Holy Spirit is to come fill individuals, when the scripture says “any of them,” we can see this fact.
So, one can see it is not as you say, that the only baptism promised is water baptism.

You obviously do not know the difference between the Holy Spirit coming "upon" and "filling" a person. News flash - neither is baptism in the Spirit.

The Holy Spirit can regenerate, come upon, fill, seal, annoint people but he cannot baptize anyone "in the Spirit" because He is not the administrator of that baptism - Christ is.

The only baptism the Holy Spirit administers is WATER baptism as the human administrator works as "one" under the leadership of the Holy Spirit when administering baptism:

1 Cor. 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building.

Paul is speaking about "God" the Holy Spirit and his work using human instruments to bring the gospel and administer baptism in order to build the congregation at Corinth as a "temple of the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor. 3:16).

Read the text before you stick your foot in your mouth and make a comment you will regret.

With your statement here, you are advocating that just because someone attends a local church, that means they are saved and belong to the body of Christ.

No, I am not! First the baptism in the Spirit has nothing to do with individual salvation as people were born again before Pentecost according to Jesus in John 3:3-9.

Second, the context is addressed to the congregation at Ephesus and its members. The purpose of this context is unity and spiritual growth so that false teachers (like yourself) will not toss them to and fro with every wind of doctrine AT THE TIME OF WRITING not in heaven (vv. 13-14).

Notice that Paul does not begin with "one baptism" in this list which would be the logical beginning point IF "one baptism" referred to SPIRITUAL UNION with Christ which is ETERNAL LIFE. No, he begins first with "one body" because the congregational body is the epitomy of PRACTICAL UNITY between Christians in this present age.

There is only "ONE" body in which the Ephesians were members of, and there is only "ONE" body that each reader would belong to as all the readers of Paul's epistles in the apostolic age belonged to the same kind of church body - local visible. This epislte was read by that kind of audiance and addressed to that kind of audiance.

Does that sound realistic to you in this day, when people go to church for an hour or so once a week, then live the rest of the time like anyone else? The churches in the New Testament were commanded to expel people that would not stop their sinning.

Whether they do or don't does not change the nature of the New Testament congregational body and their responsibility as members regardless if they are assembled or unassembled as they are still members either way.

Besides, with your logic, only people enrolled in YOUR church are saved, or else you are advocating all religions claiming to be Christian are saved people, and just getting membership saves them.

News flash! No congregation in the New Testament period would accept anyone who claims to be lost! Every member in every congregation had to profess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and submit to water baptism IN ORDER TO BE a member of any congregation. Hence, Paul describes them ACCORDING TO THEIR PROFESSION just as you do toward those who are members of your particular congregation! Or do you come to church every Sunday and refuse recognize other members as "brother" and "sister" because they might be lost????? The language is called the language of accomodation as it is language fitting their profession and fitting members of such a congregational body as that profession is required to be a member.

The Lord is the Spirit, 2 Corinthians 3:17-18.

He is not speaking of any kind of baptism in the Spirit, water or anything else here. He is speaking about PROGRESSIVE SANCTIFICATION or being progressively changed by the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit just as the same Spirit worked in Abraham so that he could WALK BY FAITH.

To drink the blood of Jesus, and to eat his flesh, these are individual actions. We are to believe and obey Jesus’ words, and eating his flesh is obeying his word.

1. Partaking of blood is forbidden in the Old and New Testament:


Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

2. Cannablism is not being taught here.

3. Jesus introduces these statements clearly to be METAPHORS of partaking of jesus BY FAITH in his word not literally eating or drinking anything:

Jn. 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, are spirit, and are life.64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.


If you cannot read the above scriptures and clearly see that eating and drinking were simply METAPHORS for partaking of Christ BY FAITH IN HIS WORD then I can't help you.

The people before Pentecost had union with the Spirit when they worshipped God through the earthly tabernacle.

No they did not! I dare you to supply any scripture that teaches such a thing! They had to be BORN OF THE SPIRIT to be united with the Spirit just as Jesus told Nicodemus BEFORE Pentecost. - Jn. 3:3-9

The people from the time of Pentecost on are in union with the Spirit when they receive the Holy Spirit, when the Holy Spirit lives in them individually.

Just as false! Spiritual union with God is obtained ONLY by the New Birth before and after Pentecost as there is no SPIRITUAL LIFE apart from SPIRITUAL UNION and that is obtained by REGENERATION or being brought into SPIRITUAL UNION with God.

 

[Yeshua1]

Water Baptism does not bring remission of sin. The word "for" in Acts 2:38 does not mean 'so that you can get'... it means 'because of'

Acts 2:38 (KJV) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The word 'remission' is the Greek word 'aphesis'. It means liberation, forgiveness, freedom, pardon. Peter was telling that crowd to repent, to turn to God. There is a comma after the word 'Repent' in that verse. That indicates a pause. Peter said "Turn to God." He continued by assuring them that in turning to God they would receive remission of sin. Their response because they had been pardoned for sin should be to be baptized.

Baptism doesn't remove sin in one's life.

indeed...

They were instructed to be baptized into the name...
Would have been father/Son/Spirit, as per jesus great Commission message to his flock..

The baptism would be saying that the person that we are now being baptized under/into is the One that saved us, NOT the water, it symbolizes that which He had done!

 

[Moriah]

jesus and the Apostles ALL stated that one believes in jesus , and at that moment are justified and born anew!

Many people say they believe in Jesus, but does that mean they are born anew? I know a person that says they believe in God and Jesus, yet they do things that I could not feel comfortable even mentioning, let alone think about. Are they anew?

ALL the bible teaching on obeying Him refers to post salvation, NOT before!

Before, during, and after.

ALL real Christians have both a new nature and the Holy Spirit, and they would be wanting to please God and obey him, but we still have the old nature and sin principle dwelling in us at war against that getting done...
See Apostle paul!

I do not believe as you do about Apostle Paul. Apostle Paul did not keep practicing the sins that he used to explain why it qualified him as the worst of sinners.

 

[Moriah]

I thought you said "goodbye"?

This is a good bye for me. – Moriah

I do not want to speak directly to you anymore! Would you not speak directly to me? You are a brute talking man.

You demand scripture from everyone else when they make statements so give scripture or you are a hypocrit!

I love giving scripture and explaining them. I will do it again.
Water baptism is a promise of a good conscience to God. See 1 Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

I do not ever mind repeating the truth.

The Holy Spirit can regenerate, come upon, fill, seal, annoint people but he cannot baptize anyone "in the Spirit" because He is not the administrator of that baptism - Christ is.

The Lord is the Spirit. See 2 Corinthians 3:17-18.

The only baptism the Holy Spirit administers is WATER baptism as the human administrator works as "one" under the leadership of the Holy Spirit when administering baptism:

Read the text before you stick your foot in your mouth and make a comment you will regret.

Where do you think you are teaching me something?
You make no sense. You said, “The only baptism the Holy Spirit administers is WATER baptism…”

No, I am not! First the baptism in the Spirit has nothing to do with individual salvation as people were born again before Pentecost according to Jesus in John 3:3-9.

God’s Spirit is no longer in an earthly building. God’s Spirit lives inside true believers.

Whether they do or don't does not change the nature of the New Testament congregational body and their responsibility as members regardless if they are assembled or unassembled as they are still members either way.

I am speaking of nowadays churches. I have been baptized in three different churches in my life, do you really think that I am forever their member?

If you cannot read the above scriptures and clearly see that eating and drinking were simply METAPHORS for partaking of Christ BY FAITH IN HIS WORD then I can't help you.

You cannot help me, nor anyone, not even yourself.

 

[Yeshua1]

Many people say they believe in Jesus, but does that mean they are born anew? I know a person that says they believe in God and Jesus, yet they do things that I could not feel comfortable even mentioning, let alone think about. Are they anew?

IF they really trusted in the person and work of jesus done on their behalf...
yes
They would be in rebellion against their Lord, and would be facing Chastisment from god to bring them back around IF they chose to persisit in their sinning...

Could also be that they have professed Christ, without being in a saving relationship with Him!

Before, during, and after.

Where did Jesus say to us we must obey him before we can get saved by him?

I do not believe as you do about Apostle Paul. Apostle Paul did not keep practicing the sins that he used to explain why it qualified him as the worst of sinners.

Apostle paul shows us that even while saved by god, can STILL be found doing bad things still, for we need to rely upon the empowering of the Holy spirit, and not our sternght to live a Christian life!

 

[DHK]

You are wrong. Water baptism is a promise of a good conscience to God. See 1 Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
--"The like figure" indicates that this is a picture of something else, something already mentioned previously.
--"Baptism saves us". From what? It is a picture of destruction. What happened. Previously Noah was in the ark, and all human flesh was destroyed by being immersed in the Flood, being baptized in the destruction of the Flood. It was the Ark (Jesus) that saved.
"not the putting away of the flesh" That is a reference to sin. That is what the Flood did. It destroyed all the wickedness, the sinful actions of the wicked. They were baptized in the flood and their sin and wickedness was destroyed. That is the picture of baptism here.
Noah and his family were saved from that baptism.
But saved by the answer of a good conscience toward God. What is that good conscience?
It is the resurrection of Jesus Christ and their belief in it. They were saved by faith alone. Noah built an ark by faith. By faith he was saved. By faith we are also saved.

Where did I say I lived my Christian life like that? YOU need to speak for yourself. You also need to stop bearing false witness. Where did I say I lived my Christian life like that?

You spoke on behalf of Christians and other churches. You can't do that since you haven't been in all churches. Speak for yourself and not for others. Don't bear false witness of those churches that you know nothing about. This is a baptist board, and chances are you are not even a baptist, thus don't have a clue what you are talking about. Are you Church of Christ? Quit hiding behind a mask!

Do you know what a hypocrite is? Stop telling me not to speak about topics when you speak about the very thing, not only that, you bear false witness, implying I live my Christian life as an unbeliever.

What did you say? "It happens in "those churches". You speak for everyone else. You are they hypocrite here. You don't know what "those churches believe. You are not even a Baptist and you pretend to believe what Baptists believe. No truer example of a hypocrite can be given than that!

Not every church is so into their members. The Mormon Church excommunicates members for a couple of reasons. Are you claiming that makes them a true body of Christ?

No, I was speaking of Bible based churches that have Christ as their head. I defined churches in that way. You can't read??? The Mormon Church doesn't have Christ as their head. They had Joseph Smith and now they have a line of succession of leaders that come from him that started with Brigham Young. Even he wasn't Christ!

Being saved is an individual happening. Having the Holy Spirit is when the Holy Spirit lives inside a true believer.

I never said it wasn't.

A person can be saved and have the Holy Spirit and never belong to a church on earth.

He could, but he would be living a life of disobedience. In the OT, they would use the term "being cut off." That is they would not be in fellowship with God for their disobedience to God.

In addition, a person could belong to a church, get water baptized there, then not renew membership, nor attend there ever again, and it does not mean they do not have the Holy Spirit anymore.

I never said they wouldn't have the Holy Spirit.

I thought you did not believe someone could lose their salvation anyway.

I do.

It does not help a person to understand no matter how much they read the Bible. A person will not understand the Truth just by reading your Bible.

My Bible is genuine. It tells the truth. I don't know what your Bible is; the Book of Mormon perhaps? Are you insinuating that your "Bible" is different?
I quoted from 1Cor.1, to give you the context of the letter. And that is what you are objecting to--the Bible itself. Truly Amazing!!

I am trying so hard to help you to understand.

I am not the one that needs the help. This truth is self-evident.

You think Christ resides in you, if you do not think he resides in me than it gives me doubts to what kind of spirit you have. Who says only one of us can claim him?

It was an illustration. I was hoping that you would understand it.
Like I said, I am not the one that needs the help in understanding.

I will learn how to pass these kinds of comments from you in the future. I do not see how someone who says some of the things as you do is serious about understanding.

Again: learn.
As Christ can indwell many believers and still be one Christ (he sits on his throne in his body on the right hand of God interceding for us).
So Christ can also be the head of every local church that believes the Bible. What is so hard about that concept? Is it so difficult to believe?

I do not claim any denomination. I do not even claim a religion who claims they are nondenominational.

It is my guess you are Church of Christ. They are more or less ashamed to admit their "denomination" and hate the very classification of "denomination" itself. But look on the bright side. If you are truly non-denominational you will accept all the beliefs of the Mormons, the J.W's, the SDA's, the Moonies, Scientology, etc. You accept all these beliefs if you are either interdenominational or nondenominational for you have no set beliefs of your own. You can deny the deity of Christ, the trinity, the resurrection, and all the orthodox fundamental historical beliefs of Christianity. You are nondenominational and accept everything from everyone. No wonder you are so confused.

Baptism is symbolic. Baptism illustrates a believer’s identification with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. Our old nature is to die and we are to be “buried with Him through baptism into death.” We are buried with the water, and raised out of the water, raised to “walk in newness of life” (live like Jesus).

I have no problem with that. It is a picture of that, after one is saved. It has nothing to do with their salvation, not a requirement of their salvation, but is the first step of obedience after their salvation.

Picture how baptism looks…the believer comes to make the pledge to God, to die to the sins of the world; so now standing in the water the believer falls back, as if dead; then, the believer goes under the water, buried; then, the believer rises up out of the water, raises up to live a new life.

So what is your point? Baptism is a picture.

Romans explain this perfectly.
Romans 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

I never said anything differently.

Water baptism is a promise of a good conscience to God. See 1 Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

No, as explained, it is a picture. It doesn't save. You said so many right things. Why do you go and ruin it and say it saves?

 

[Moriah]

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
--"The like figure" indicates that this is a picture of something else, something already mentioned previously.
--"Baptism saves us". From what? It is a picture of destruction. What happened. Previously Noah was in the ark, and all human flesh was destroyed by being immersed in the Flood, being baptized in the destruction of the Flood. It was the Ark (Jesus) that saved.
"not the putting away of the flesh" That is a reference to sin. That is what the Flood did. It destroyed all the wickedness, the sinful actions of the wicked. They were baptized in the flood and their sin and wickedness was destroyed. That is the picture of baptism here.
Noah and his family were saved from that baptism.
But saved by the answer of a good conscience toward God. What is that good conscience?
It is the resurrection of Jesus Christ and their belief in it. They were saved by faith alone. Noah built an ark by faith. By faith he was saved. By faith we are also saved.

You spoke on behalf of Christians and other churches. You can't do that since you haven't been in all churches. Speak for yourself and not for others. Don't bear false witness of those churches that you know nothing about. This is a baptist board, and chances are you are not even a baptist, thus don't have a clue what you are talking about. Are you Church of Christ? Quit hiding behind a mask!

What did you say? "It happens in "those churches". You speak for everyone else. You are they hypocrite here. You don't know what "those churches believe. You are not even a Baptist and you pretend to believe what Baptists believe. No truer example of a hypocrite can be given than that!

No, I was speaking of Bible based churches that have Christ as their head. I defined churches in that way. You can't read??? The Mormon Church doesn't have Christ as their head. They had Joseph Smith and now they have a line of succession of leaders that come from him that started with Brigham Young. Even he wasn't Christ!

I never said it wasn't.

He could, but he would be living a life of disobedience. In the OT, they would use the term "being cut off." That is they would not be in fellowship with God for their disobedience to God.

I never said they wouldn't have the Holy Spirit.

I do.

My Bible is genuine. It tells the truth. I don't know what your Bible is; the Book of Mormon perhaps? Are you insinuating that your "Bible" is different?
I quoted from 1Cor.1, to give you the context of the letter. And that is what you are objecting to--the Bible itself. Truly Amazing!!

I am not the one that needs the help. This truth is self-evident.

It was an illustration. I was hoping that you would understand it.
Like I said, I am not the one that needs the help in understanding.

Again: learn.
As Christ can indwell many believers and still be one Christ (he sits on his throne in his body on the right hand of God interceding for us).
So Christ can also be the head of every local church that believes the Bible. What is so hard about that concept? Is it so difficult to believe?

It is my guess you are Church of Christ. They are more or less ashamed to admit their "denomination" and hate the very classification of "denomination" itself. But look on the bright side. If you are truly non-denominational you will accept all the beliefs of the Mormons, the J.W's, the SDA's, the Moonies, Scientology, etc. You accept all these beliefs if you are either interdenominational or nondenominational for you have no set beliefs of your own. You can deny the deity of Christ, the trinity, the resurrection, and all the orthodox fundamental historical beliefs of Christianity. You are nondenominational and accept everything from everyone. No wonder you are so confused.

I have no problem with that. It is a picture of that, after one is saved. It has nothing to do with their salvation, not a requirement of their salvation, but is the first step of obedience after their salvation.

So what is your point? Baptism is a picture.

I never said anything differently.

No, as explained, it is a picture. It doesn't save. You said so many right things. Why do you go and ruin it and say it saves?

I am not interested in going through each of your comments to me.
I do love repeating the truth.
I hope I have helped even just one person understand something better.

Baptism illustrates a believer’s identification with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. Our old nature is to die and we are to be “buried with Him through baptism into death.” We are buried with the water, and raised out of the water, raised to “walk in newness of life” (live like Jesus).

Picture how baptism looks…the believer comes to make the pledge to God, to die to the sins of the world; so now standing in the water the believer falls back, as if dead; then, the believer goes under the water, buried; then, the believer rises up out of the water, raises up to live a new life.

Romans explain this perfectly.
Romans 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Water baptism is a promise of a good conscience to God. See 1 Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

 

[Yeshua1]

Your intepretation of John 6 is supportive of the false interpretation of the RCC.

The Baptism in the Spirit cannot possibly be defined or equated to SPIRITUAL UNION with God as that assigns all pre-Pentecost people to hell. The opposite of SPIRITUAL UNION is SPIRITUAL SEPARATION!

No, as under the old Covenant relationship, they were NOT in same spiritual state as we in the new Covenant now are, as they were NOT indwelt/filled by the Holy Spirit, nor in spiritual union in Body of christ, the Church!

The Baptism in the Spirit cannot possibly be placement into the so-called mystical body of Christ as Christ is the Adaministrator of this baptism not the element. The element is the Holy Spirit.

jesus though DID release the Holy Spirit back to the earth in a NEW fashion, NEW way after his acension back to the father!
That was on pentacost, where he started a new work, in that all believers in yeshua would now have new natures and Him indwelling/infilling them!

 

[The Biblicist]

jesus though DID release the Holy Spirit back to the earth in a NEW fashion, NEW way after his acension back to the father!
That was on pentacost, where he started a new work, in that all believers in yeshua would now have new natures and Him indwelling/infilling them!

I do not believe the Holy Spirit was released "back to earth" as he never left (Gen. 1:2) and I don't believe the Spirit works any different now within INDIVIDUALS after Pentecost than He did before Penteocst.

If there is no SPIRITUAL UNION between the believer and God before Pentecost than all who lived prior to Pentecost are SPIRITUALLY SEPARATED from God and thus SPIRITUALLY DEAD and in hell.

It is utterly impossible for Abraham to walk by faith apart from the permenant indwelling of the Holy Spirit as progressive sanctification is merely working out the new crreature "in Christ" and Abraham was "created IN CHRIST' because he was elected "IN HIM" before the world began (Eph. 1:4) and because Paul explicitly says that Abbraham was "in Christ" (Gal. 3:17).

The only candidates for the baptism in the spirit are water baptized believers (Mt. 3:11a) which Christ did in fact command them to wait at Jerusalem for this baptism (Acts 1:5) and which they did wait (Acts 2:1). It occurred ONCE for all to the Jewish congregration of baptized believers and then it was repeated ONCE so that they would receive Gentiles as candidates for water baptism and membership in the congregation at Jerusalem (Acts 11:15-16). The nearest reference point that Peter could point to for what happened in the house of Cornelius was "AT the beginning" not "SINCE" the beginning as your theory and the Pentecostal theory demands.
Abraham is given as the illustration (Gal. 3:6-17) for one who has Faith in the Gospel and the indwelling Spirit of God spelled out in Galatians 3:1-5.

The baptism in the Spirit is an INSTITUTIONAL baptism and was common in the Old Testament in the dedication of the "house of God" (Ex. 40; 2 Chron. 7) and this is simply a new house of God built out of living stones (1 Tim. 3:15; 1 Pet. 2:5).

 

[The Biblicist]

I love giving scripture and explaining them. I will do it again.
.....I do not ever mind repeating the truth.


You cannot help me, nor anyone, not even yourself.

I don't doubt your sincerety and I don't doubt you love sharing what you think is true. However, in the areas that really count, and I am talking about salvation and the gospel of Jesus Christ, you are simply ignorant, sincere, but ignorant.

 

[Moriah]

I don't doubt your sincerety and I don't doubt you love sharing what you think is true. However, in the areas that really count, and I am talking about salvation and the gospel of Jesus Christ, you are simply ignorant, sincere, but ignorant.

If anyone wants to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and know Him, get Jesus’ teachings, believe them, and obey them. Jesus will reveal himself to you.

When you do those things, you are the one who loves Jesus. His Father will love him who loves Jesus, and Jesus will love you too.

You will receive the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God the Father, and Jesus Christ the Son.

They will make their home with you.

John 14:21, 23.

 

[DHK]

I am speaking of nowadays churches. I have been baptized in three different churches in my life, do you really think that I am forever their member?

What is the name of the church you now belong to?

 

[convicted1]

You would make a fine Roman Catholic but not a very good Christian.

Brother, I would greatly appreciate it if you didn't put my salvation in question, okay? You may, or may not, have meant it, but read this and see if it doesn't sound like you just questioned my salvation. I will give you the benefit of the doubt.


That being said, you're in a safe place. They don't moderate this board any more. They let things go such as the serpent seed doctrine, and the elect are never in condemnation at any time in their life, and they just let it slide. They like to have the word "MODERATOR/ADMINISTRATOR" under their username, but they don't inforce anything anymore. :tear: :tear: :tear: :tear:

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

If anyone wants to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and know Him, get Jesus’ teachings, believe them, and obey them. Jesus will reveal himself to you.

When you do those things, you are the one who loves Jesus. His Father will love him who loves Jesus, and Jesus will love you too.

You will receive the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God the Father, and Jesus Christ the Son.

They will make their home with you.

John 14:21, 23

GE:

Old testament theology! "If anyone wants to ..." God cannot unless we will.
Instead of, If God want.
We cannot unless God will!

Old testament theology! "If anyone wants to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and know Him ..." instead of, If Christ knew you!

Therefore, Get Jesus’ teachings; don't make your own! Believe HIM --- no doctrines! And obey Jesus however He will reveal himself to you, AND KNOW FOR SURE, HE WILL NEVER LEAD YOU AGAINST HIS WORD IN AND ACCORDING TO THE _SCRIPTURES_!

When you do those things, you are BELOVED of Jesus. His Father will love him whom JESUS loves, and Jesus will love you too.

"You will receive the Holy Spirit" --- not 'If you this' or 'If you that' BUT, "Father, _I will_ that they, _also_ ..."

"He that loveth Me SHALL be …" = MUST BE AND WILL BE, "... LOVE-D of My FATHER" --- FIRST!

"THOU GAVEST ME … those I have kept."

 

[The Biblicist]

Brother, I would greatly appreciate it if you didn't put my salvation in question, okay? You may, or may not, have meant it, but read this and see if it doesn't sound like you just questioned my salvation. I will give you the benefit of the doubt.


That being said, you're in a safe place. They don't moderate this board any more. They let things go such as the serpent seed doctrine, and the elect are never in condemnation at any time in their life, and they just let it slide. They like to have the word "MODERATOR/ADMINISTRATOR" under their username, but they don't inforce anything anymore. :tear: :tear: :tear: :tear:

I was not making any reference to your personal relationship with God. My point was that your interpretation would be acceptable to Rome.

 

[The Biblicist]

If anyone wants to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and know Him, get Jesus’ teachings, believe them, and obey them. Jesus will reveal himself to you.

When you do those things, you are the one who loves Jesus. His Father will love him who loves Jesus, and Jesus will love you too.

You will receive the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God the Father, and Jesus Christ the Son.

They will make their home with you.

John 14:21, 23.

The Baptism in the Spirit cannot possibly be the same as Spiritual Union with God because Spiritual Separation is Spiritual death and that would mean that prior to Pentecost all were spiritual dead/separated from God.

Regeneration among many other things is spiritual union with God. It is defined as being "quickened" by the Holy Spirit and placed in direct opposition to being "separated from the life of God" - Eph. 2:1,5,8; 4:18.

Furthermore, there is no such thing as salvation OUTSIDE OF CHRIST either before or after Penteocst. All the elect were chosen "IN HIM" before the world began (Eph. 1:4) unto salvation (2 Thes. 2;13) and it is explicitly said that the covenant was made by God with Abraham "in Christ" 430 years before the law was given by Moses:

Gal. 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

The Bible no where teaches that there is salvation OUTSIDE of Christ, meaning outside of SPIRITUAL UNION with Christ.

The baptism in the Spirit is the accreditation of the N.T. Congregation as the new house of God. It is an INSTITUTIONAL baptism not an INDIVIDUAL baptism and the promise is directed toward the materials that John the Baptist made ready prepared for the Lord (Mt. 3:11a) to be formed into this new "house of God." Those materials are explicitly identified on the day of Pentecost as water baptized believing members of "the church" (Acts 2:1, 40, 48).

However, there is much more to it than merely accrediting the N.T. Congregation as the new and authorized public house of worship.

1. This is a change of public administration within the apparent kingdom of God, and thus a transfer of the keys of the kingdom from the Jewish public administration to the church administration. - Mt. 16:19 with Mt. 18:17-18; 21:43-44

2. This is a change from an Old Covenant public administration to a New Covenant public administration within the apparent kingdom of God on earth - Heb. 9:1

3. This is a change from a Jewish Mission to a non-ethnic world wide mission - Mt. 28:19; Acts 1;8

4. Within this pomise is a special application of power to the apostolic office as part of the "foundation" of this new institution. The apostolic office was first placed in the congregation of Christ (1 Cor. 12:28) and designed to be witnesses of the resurrection of Jesus Christ and prophetically assigned the task of completing the written revelation of God to men (Isa.8:16-20; Jn. 16:13; 1 Jn. 4:5-6; 2 Thes. 2:15; etc.) and in the performance of this task they were given power manifested as "miracles, signs and wonders" as "THE SIGN" of the apostolic office (2 Cor. 12:12) to confirm their oral and written words were from God (Heb. 2:3-4) and were "signs" to Israel that their Christ had come (Isa. 8:18; Heb. 2:12).

What Jesus calls "the promise" includes all the above. The Holy Spirit already dwelt "with" them as individuals - regenerated, Spriit indwelt; but on Pentecost the Holy Spirit would come to dwell "in" them as public corporate temple of God (see 1 Cor. 3:16 in contrast to 1 Cor. 6:17). They were individually a temple of the Spirit already but they would be a temple of the Spirit corporately. The indwelling Spirit of God within the public "house" of worship is manifested by correct public worship (1 Pet. 2:5) in offering up "acceptable sacrifices" together with a properly qualified public ministry (1 Tim. 3:1-13) maintain it as the "pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).

The Apostolic office was foundational and thus "the signs" of an apostle were temporary because their mission was completed in confirming and completing the New Testament Canon of Scriptures.

1. No one but the Apostles performed miracles signs and wonders between Acts 2 and Acts 6.

2. No one but those upon whom the apostles laid their hands performed miracles, signs and wonders between Acts 6 and Acts 28

3. When the last living apostle died the ability to impart miracles, signs and wonders through laying on of hands ceased.

4. When the last living disciple upon whom the apostles laid hands died so did miracles, signs and wonders as gifts to men.

CONCLUSION: The baptism in the Spirit has to do with the Institutional public house of Worship; (1) its public accreditation by God as the New house of public worship; (2) empowerment of the foundational church office to fulfill their mission; (2) The confirmation of a new administrative change within the apparent kingdom of God - new custodian of the keys of the kingdom; (3) The change from an Old Covenant administration to a New Covenant administration within the apparent kingdom of God; (4) The change of mission from a Jewish characterization to a non-ethnic world wide characterization; (5) Indwelling of a new temple manifested by new qualified public ordinances, new qualified public ministry, new qualified public worship with a new qualified public mission - make disciples of all nations, baptizing them....teaching them...lo I am with you always...."

 

[Yeshua1]

the Lord was able to apply the merits/benefits of the coming messiah atonement to theOoT believers in God and the promise of coming messiah...

He did "back date" them to their account, so was able to forbade their sins, not applying them to do in an accountible basis, but paul makes clear that while God "overlooked/forbaded" in the past, under old Covenant sins of man...

NOW in NT times with coming messiah, requires all men to repent and come to Christ!

the had sins forgiven on basis of forthvomig messiah that was to come, but did NOT have spiritual union, indwelling/sealing Holy spirit as we do now under New Coveant, could not until messiah actually came and died!

while the Holy spirit always was here, he DID come in a new fashion/work/way at pentacost!

 

[The Biblicist]

but did NOT have spiritual union, indwelling/sealing Holy spirit as we do now under New Coveant, could not until messiah actually came and died!

while the Holy spirit always was here, he DID come in a new fashion/work/way at pentacost!

You are simply wrong! Think about it for a moment. What is the opposite of Spiritual union with God? That's right, spiritual separation from God. There can be no spiritual life where there is no spiritual union.

If you define the baptism in the Spirit as spiritual union with God you are assiging all people prior to Pentecost to spiritual death.

You are also denying regeneration prior to Pentecost as regeneration is "quickening" or SPIRITUAL LIFE and there is no quickening apart from union with the Spirit of God.

You are also denying progressive sanctification prior to Pentecost because without the indwelling Spirit of God there is no progressive sanctification.

Paul sums it up in Romans 8:9 "If ANY MAN have not the Spirit of God HE IS NONE OF HIS". He did not say "if any Post-Pentecost man" but "ANY MAN" and the context is referring to only two possible classes of human beings (1) those "in the flesh" versus (2) those "in the Spirit" There has never been nor shall ever be any third class of human beings.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

...snipped....

 

[Moriah]

If you believe that even one small deed is required for salvation, then I would question your salvation, because Jesus paid the entire price for our salvation. Our price is nil, nada, zero, zilch. There is nothing we can do. Not one work!

No it wasn't. Conversion was by faith and faith alone. Obedience came after conversion.

That is a heresy. It is no different than the teaching of Islam or Hinduism. It is salvation by works. It is not what orthodox Christianity teaches or has ever taught.

Salvation is not of works. It is by faith and faith alone.

DHK, you go against what God says, read Jeremiah 7:23.

But I gave them this command: obey me, and I will be your God and you will be my people.
Walk in all the ways I command you, that it may go well with you, Jeremiah 7:23.

Are you going to stop saying we do not have to do anything?

God says to them to obey, and then He will be their God, and they will then be His people.