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Featured The Irrefutable Sabbath Facts

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, Jul 9, 2013.

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  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    1. The Sabbath Law does not RESTRICT the Sabbath to the seventh day "of the week"

    2. The Sabbath law CANNOT be restricted to the Seventh day "of the week" or else God would be condemned as violating it, as he applies it to FIXED DATES and other days of the week. He applies it to other periods than 24 hours - Lev. 23-25.

    3. Hence, the proper interpretation of the Sabbath Law must be BROAD enough to incorporate all APPLICATIONS by God Himself. This denies, repudiates any RESTRICTION of the Sabbath Law to the seventh day "of the week.

    4. However, application to the seventh day "of the week" does not violate the Sabbath Law as it is BROAD enough to INCLUDE that application.

    5. The "week" is a by product of the seven Creation days and our division into weeks must be derived from these seven days at the beginning BECAUSE neither the lunar or solar year is divisble by seven and so the only explanation for divisions into "weeks" is the creation seven days.

    6. There had to be a practical weekly application of the Sabbath that was consistent prior to the cross and all evidence points to the fact that at least among the Jews the weekly sabbath was their seventh day "of the week" or Saturday.

    7. God changed the weekly day of Sabbath keeping from the Jewish seventh day "of the week" to the Christian resurrection day or "first day of the week" (Psa. 118:24/Acts 4:10-11/Heb. 4:9-10; Rev. 1:10; Acts 2:1; 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:1-2; John 20)

    8. The first day "of the week" Christian Sabbath is the "Lord's day" (Rev. 1:10) and commemorates a greater and better work than the original but now sin cursed creation - the work of redemption and a new sinless heaven and earth yet to come. This is preciselywhy in all the Sabbath days that charaterize the Messianic Feasts in Leviticus 23 such days fall on the 1st, 8th, 15th, 22nd, 50th day (after 7 regular sabbaths or 49 days) 50th year (after 7 regular Sabbath years or 49 years).

    9. All Mosaic Sabbatical laws have been abolished (Col. 2:16) and the "Lord's Day" (Rev. 1:10) is a day set apart for the Lord's House, to observe the Lord's Supper and the Lord's Worship, and is thus a day or rejoicing and gladness as a testimony of Christ's resurrection to the world - Psa. 118:24.

    10. It is the common day of worship from the first century until Constantine and Constantine did not invent it but simply followed the common practice and made it a STATE holiday as he made Catholicism a STATE church.
     
    #1 The Biblicist, Jul 9, 2013
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Since you are posting the same argument on multiple threads --

    The same answer as well.


    The fourth commandment does however limit the creation memorial Sabbath of Exodus 20:8-11 to the 7th day of the week.

    So trying to game the text won't work there.

    The either-or-logical fallacy that you are trying out - does not work. This is a both-and case where the 4th commandment Sabbath is valid and so also are the other Lev 23 annual Sabbaths.

    Each stands on its own.

    indeed it is. And Exodus 20:8-11 makes that case clearly. God could have chosen to make the world in 20 days or 20,000 years - but HE sovereignly chose a 7 day period where the only thing made on the 7th day - was the Sabbath. God "made IT Holy"


    How refreshing to see you admit to so basic a point here. I feel like we are getting somewhere.


    1. NO Bible text for "first day "of the week" Christian Sabbath is the "Lord's day" -- so you simply make it up.

    2. NO Bible text for "God changed the weekly day of Sabbath keeping from the Jewish seventh day "of the week" to the Christian resurrection day or "first day of the week"" -- so you simply make it up.

    By contrast the Baptist Confession of Faith says that the SAME TEN Commandments given in Eden - with the SAME 4th commandment - are still applicable to all mankind - including the saints today.

    Did you miss that --- again?


    There is no first century reference to week-day-1 as the "common day of worship".

    INSTEAD we have far MORE Sabbath gospel sermon and worship services in the NT than anything at all for week-day-1.

    And what is worse - we do not even have "week-day-1 is the Lord's Day" -- NT or OT.

    But in Isaiah 58:13 and in Mark 2:28 we find that the Lord's Day is the Sabbath - the Holy Day of the Lord and Christ is "Lord of the Sabbath".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #2 BobRyan, Jul 9, 2013
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Please quote any Scripture that contains the Sabbath Law where "OF THE WEEK" is found! If you cannot, then you are lying. Put up or shut up!



    False! The restriction of the Sabbath law to the seventh day "of the week" forbids any application outside of that restriction or else it is no restriction at all.


    Nope - Psa. 118:24/Acts 4;10-11; Mk. 16:9; Rev. 1:10; Heb. 4:9-10 all confirm the first day of the week as the Christian application of the fourth commandment.


    Same texts as above

    Read more carefully. The Baptist Confession of Faith claims these ten commandments did NOT originate with Moses but prior to Moses. However, the Mosaic administration of the law is abolished (Col. 2:16).


    There is no argument over the fourth commandment. The argument is over the correct interpretation of the fourth commandment. Your interpretation restricts the fourth commandment to something narrower than God's own use and application so your interpretation is wrong. The proper interpretation of the fourth commandment will be sufficiently broad enough to justify God's own use and application of it. He does not restrict it to the seventh day "of the week" or any day "of the week" although it is sufficiently broad enough to apply it to Saturday prior to the Cross and Sunday after the cross.

    in Christ,

    Bob[/QUOTE]
     
    #3 The Biblicist, Jul 9, 2013
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]



    The fourth commandment does however limit the creation memorial Sabbath of Exodus 20:8-11 to the 7th day of the week.


    Once "again" you resort to vitriol and venom over reason and substance. Why keep doing that?

    Who buys into it??

    Here is the 4th Commandment I mentioned above.

    Ex 20
    8 ""Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
    9 ""     Sixdays you shall labor and do all your work,
    10 but     the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
    11 ""     For in six days the LORD made theheavens and the earth, the sea and allthat is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day andmade it holy.


    Ex 16
    23 then he said to them, ""This is what the LORD meant:     Tomorrow is the Sabbath observance, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. Bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over put aside to be kept until morning.''
    24 So they put it aside until morning, as Moses had ordered, and it did not become foul nor was there any worm in it.
    25 Moses said, ""Eat it today, for today is a Sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field.
    26 "" Six days you shall gather it,     but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.''
    27 It came about on     the seventh day that some of the people went out to gather, but they found none.

    =============================
    Gen 2
    2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
    3 Then     God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
    4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.



    Again you are gaming the point rather than actually responding to the details in my post. I did not say there is no other Sabbath listed in Lev 23 other than the one already mentioned in the 4th commandment -- so you "make it up".

    Your practice of gaming the point - instead of actually responding to the details in the post - is more transparent to the reader than you appear to have at first imagined.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #4 BobRyan, Jul 9, 2013
  5. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    No it does not as Leviticus 23 is an eternal monument that it is not limited to the seventh day "of the week." Neither does Exodus 20:8-11 provide the words "of the week" - NADA!




    Yeah, right! Asking you to provide evidence is "vitriol and venonm" and asking you to "put up or shut up" is "Vitrol and venom"!!!!! yeah, right!


    I am not selling it, don't have to, it is right in God's Word.

    No one is disputing the fourth commandment!!! NOT ME! I am disputing that any record contains "of the week" and not one of the above scriptures contain "of the week." NADA!





    Is it gaming your point to insist that the "details" of your post provide evidence for "of the week" inclusion into the fourth commandment?????? Is it gaming your post to allow you to READ INTO the text what is not there???? Is it gaming your post to allow you to REWRITE the fourth commandment to suit your own denominations false doctrine??? I think not!




    I never said you did! I said that any interpretation of the fourth commandment that restricts its interpretation to a particular day "of the week" cannot at the same time claim it is broad enough to include FIXED DATES and thus OTHER DAYS of the week - that is oxymoronic - self-contradictory.

    The true intepretation must be BROADLY SUFFICIENT to include ALL applications by God and your's is not! - Thus yours is wrong!


    To admit that there must be a starting point for a weekly application as in "tomorrow is the Sabbath" does not mean it is RESTRICTED to that application only that it is INCLUSIVE of that application. SO YOU HAVE NO POINT - NADA!
     
    #5 The Biblicist, Jul 9, 2013
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Which still does not support your wild claims about the 4th commandment not limiting itself to the 7th day of the week - Saturday.


    Hint: Read your own post above.


    Hint: Read your own post above.

    As your own post shows - the 7th day is in fact the 7th day of the week. (Which of course is incredibly obvious anyway)


    Ex 20
    8 ""Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
    9 ""     Sixdays you shall labor and do all your work,
    10 but     the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
    11 ""     For in six days the LORD made theheavens and the earth, the sea and allthat is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.


    Ex 16
    23 then he said to them, ""This is what the LORD meant:     Tomorrow is the Sabbath observance, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. Bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over put aside to be kept until morning.''
    24 So they put it aside until morning, as Moses had ordered, and it did not become foul nor was there any worm in it.
    25 Moses said, ""Eat it today, for today is a Sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field.
    26 "" Six days you shall gather it,     but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.''
    27 It came about on     the seventh day that some of the people went out to gather, but they found none.

    =============================
    Gen 2
    2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
    3 Then     God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
    4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #6 BobRyan, Jul 9, 2013
  7. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Only to one who is intentionally blinded by false doctrine! It is self-evident to any rational being that you cannot claim a law is restricted to a specific and yet at the same time claim it is not limited to that specific - that is oxymoronic reasoning! The law must be interpeted to be INCLUSIVE of all it is applied to and it is applied to OTHER DAYS - fixed dates and OTHER DAYS of the week as the FIXED DATES did not fall on the seventh day "of the week." A little honesty with common sense might help here!




    This is purely dishonest and a misleading statement! My post NEVER says that the Sabbath is LIMITED/RESTRICTED to the seventh day "of the week" only that it is broad enough to be applied to the seventh day "of the week" or whatever day "of the week" the FIXED DATED sabbath falls on as well. Stop perverting my words.







    Again, no "of the week" can be found in any of these texts. Again, applying it to the seventh day "of the week" is appliable EQUALLY as applying it to any FIXED DATED Sabbath which falls on another day "of the week." The proper interpetation is INCLUSIVE of both and any interpretation that demands the RESTRICTION to one or the other is false. Your intepretation is false as it restricts it to only ONE DAY "of the week" while God applies it to OTHER DAYS 'of the week."

    in Christ,

    Bob[/QUOTE]
     
    #7 The Biblicist, Jul 9, 2013
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Hint - your own post is loaded with your own act of admitting that this is the 7th day of the week.

    ==============

    Originally Posted by The Biblicist [​IMG]

    5. The "week" is a by product of the seven Creation days and our division into weeks must be derived from these seven days at the beginning BECAUSE neither the lunar or solar year is divisble by seven and so the only explanation for divisions into "weeks" is the creation seven days.

    6. There had to be a practical weekly application of the Sabbath that was consistent prior to the cross and all evidence points to the fact that at least among the Jews the weekly sabbath was their seventh day "of the week" or Saturday.

    7. God changed the weekly day of Sabbath keeping from the Jewish seventh day "of the week" to the Christian resurrection day or "first day of the week" (Psa. 118:24/Acts 4:10-11/Heb. 4:9-10; Rev. 1:10; Acts 2:1; 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:1-2; John 20)


    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost...&postcount=108
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2008264&postcount=108

    =======================

    Thus you actually proved my own statement in my own post -

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]



    The fourth commandment does however limit the creation memorial Sabbath of Exodus 20:8-11 to the 7th day of the week.
     
    #8 BobRyan, Jul 9, 2013
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  9. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    You are as dishonest with my words as your are with the HOly Spirit's Words. You full well know I admitted no such thing. Your dishonest inference is that I admitted that the fourth commandment is restricted to the seventh day "of the week." That is a lie! I admitted no such thing.

    The only thing I admitted was that the fourth commandment Law CANNOT be restricted to the seventh day "of the week" but such an application under the Old Covenant is a consistent application EQUALLY as it is to other days "of the week" in Leviticus 23.

    The difference between my view and yours is enormous. My interpretation of the Sabbath Law is CONSISTENT with its application by God to other days "of the week" as in Leviticus 23 while yours is not. My interpretation of the Sabbath law is CONSISTENT with its application by God to greater extended periods than 24 hour days as in Levitus 23 and 25 but your interpetation is not. Yours restricts it to the seventh day "of the week" which restriction cannot be explained consistently with applications to other days "of the week" or greater periods of time than 24 hour days.

    The readers can tell your shenanigan's are deceitful and dishonest.
     
    #9 The Biblicist, Jul 9, 2013
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I quoted your words exactly. I cannot be blamed if they provide self-conflicted arguments against the very points you are raising.

    Sadly for your argument - you keep harping on the idea that there are annual Sabbaths listed in Lev 23 - as if I am supposed to object to that idea given that there is also the Creation-memorial Sabbath of the 4th commandment.

    An argument that I never make. So you invent it for me as if that is supposed to be convincing. It is not.

    I have said all along that they all stand on their own - ordained by God, Sanctified by God - defined and blessed by God.

    My point has consistently been that the 4th commandment is very specific to the 7th day Sabbath. Not any of the others. It actually mentions the 7th day of the week as the Sabbath. And sadly for your own self-conflicted arguments - after falling on your sword over the idea that we are not supposed to notice that 4th commandment specifying the 7th day of the actual week - you then go on to admit to this "seventh day of the week" fact -- applying it to the 4th commandment.

    =====================

    Originally Posted by The Biblicist [​IMG]

    5. The "week" is a by product of the seven Creation days and our division into weeks must be derived from these seven days at the beginning BECAUSE neither the lunar or solar year is divisble by seven and so the only explanation for divisions into "weeks" is the creation seven days.

    6. There had to be a practical weekly application of the Sabbath that was consistent prior to the cross and all evidence points to the fact that at least among the Jews the weekly sabbath was their seventh day "of the week" or Saturday.

    7. God changed the weekly day of Sabbath keeping from the Jewish seventh day "of the week" to the Christian resurrection day or "first day of the week" (Psa. 118:24/Acts 4:10-11/Heb. 4:9-10; Rev. 1:10; Acts 2:1; 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:1-2; John 20)


    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost...&postcount=108


    =================

    You simply cannot blame me - each time you shoot one of your own arguments in the foot.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #10 BobRyan, Jul 9, 2013
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  11. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Yes, in true Divine, Christian PRINCIPLE, it is a fact, << God changed the weekly day of Sabbath keeping from the Jewish seventh day "of the week" to the Christian resurrection day …>> “OF THE SABBATH”, ‘sabbatohn’, Matthew 28:1.

    But in just as ACTUAL and LITERAL FACT, it is UNTRUE and in Divine, Christian PRINCIPLE, FALSE, that << God changed the weekly day of Sabbath to the … "first day of the week". Because ACTUAL and LITERAL FACT in every case of <<Psa. 118:24/Acts 4:10-11/Heb. 4:9-10; Rev. 1:10; Acts 2:1; 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:1-2; John 20>> is, that “the day The Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD” is at least, the implied day of Christ’s Resurrection—in fact in Acts 20:7 and in 1Corinthians 16:2 AS WELL!

    THEREFORE – yes BECAUSE of the Sabbath at least being implied when not also directly mentioned-FOR-BEING the day of the week that Christ ROSE from the dead on – yes, THEREFORE, every of these very Scriptures get mongrelised and as it were get a new identity sewed on THROUGH MISINTERPRETATION OR AND MISTRANSLATION
    … by Non-Seventh-day Adventist Sabbatharians and Seventh-day Adventist and Sundaydarian Sundayists equally …

    … with NO fear for God or his Word.
     
    #11 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 10, 2013
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  12. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Had you but admitted you would have admitted your error and would have made good that which is truth, namely, <that the fourth commandment is restricted to the seventh day "of the week.">

    Pity you let the opportunity to make good, pass by.
     
    #12 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 10, 2013
  13. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Using the word 'sabbath' for the name of the second day of the passover, is not <applying the Sabbath law> to other days of the week.

    That's your ERROR, dear Biblicist.

     
    #13 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 10, 2013
  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    GE you are not very clear. I have no clue as to what you are trying to say.
     
    #14 The Biblicist, Jul 10, 2013
  15. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Sorry, but the word "Sabbath" has no meaning apart from the Law of Sabbath and so that is your ERROR, dear GE
     
    #15 The Biblicist, Jul 10, 2013
  16. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    The above facts stand regardless of Ryan's and GE's objections. There is no point in going around and around on the very same arguments they offer over and over again. No amount of evidence will persuade those married to the false Saturdarian doctrine and it is an exercise of futility to repeat and repeat and repeat the same arguments over and over again. The above facts still stand untarnished when all the air is cleared.
     
    #16 The Biblicist, Jul 10, 2013
  17. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    For those readers with more objective minds. There is a simple reason why the words "of the week" cannot be found in any record of Sabbath law. The reason is that God applies Sabbath Law not only to other days "of the week" than the Seventh day but to greater periods than a 24 hour day. Hence, the proper interpretation of the Sabbath law must be INCLUSIVE of all Divine applications as any interpretation more restrictive condemns God's own use of Sabbath Law.

    The Sabbath Law demands that only six equal divisions of time precede and follow the Seventh Sabbath, whether it is a 24 hour sabbath or a month, year or millennium Sabbath. This interpretation justifies application of the Sabbath Law to a FIXED DATE Sabbath as in Levitius 23 or a FIXED DAY sabbath as in the Jewish application under the Old Covenant to the seventh day "of the week" or the New covenant application - first day of the week Sabbath.

    The Messianic Feasts in Levitius 23 and 25 all place emphasis upon a Sabbath that falls on another day "of the week" than the Seventh day Jewish Sabbath. The emphasis falls on 1st, 8th, 15th and 22nd days of the month none of which are the seventh day "of the week" Sabbaths. The Messanic prophecy of Psalm 118:24 predicts a new Sabbath observance in connection with God's work of raising Christ from the grave (Psa. 118:20-24 with Acts 4:10-11).

    The Jewish seventh day of the week Sabbath has its final fulfillment in this SIN CURSED EARTH final seventh millennium while the new covenant first day of the week has its final fulfillment in the eighth and eternal millennium of a NEW HEAVEN and a NEW EARTH where again, God can look upon all the works of his hands and again say, "very good." The New Covenant Sabbath commemorates a BETTER and GREATER work than the first creation - the word of redemption and a BETTER and GREATER new heaven and earth. It is a BETTER Sabbath without any of the Mosaic Sabbath legislation that encumbered man under the Old Covenant but is a day that we are commanded to "rejoice and be glad in it" (Psa. 118:24). It is the "Lord's Day" for worship at the "house of God" and a witness to the world of the resurrection victory over death, hell and the grave and thus the hope of the Christian.

    The "Lord's Day" is the greatest visible testimony of the Christian hope that God has given His people. It his HIS day distinct from all the other days of the week as it does not say "the Lord's DAYS" plural but singular - and thus we should treat it as "the Lord's" just as we treat His Supper as "the Lord's" Supper.
     
    #17 The Biblicist, Jul 10, 2013
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  18. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Biblicist, the following you will remember is what you wrote to Bob Ryan,

    <<Your dishonest inference is that I admitted that the fourth commandment is restricted to the seventh day "of the week." That is a lie!>>

    Here you tackle me, with <<the word "Sabbath" has no meaning apart from the Law of Sabbath>>.

    What shall I say?

    Biblicist, you are prepared and think you are able to prove <<scriptures … applied the Sabbath law to the "first day">>
    Sunday in Mark 16:9!

    You insist <<the word "Sabbath" has no meaning apart from the Law of Sabbath>>.
    Wrong!
    The word "sabbath" has meaning ONLY IN CONTEXT OF LAW, either in the context of <<the Law of Sabbath>>, the Fourth Commandment, OR, in the context of the Law <<APART FROM the law of Sabbath>>—like in the context of the law of passover!

    So yes, <<the word "Sabbath" has no meaning apart from the Law of Sabbath>>, wholly true!
    But when you in Mark 16:9 e.g. – where the word ‘sabbath’ is used <APART from the law of “Sabbath”> –, want to force the meaning of <<the Law of Sabbath>> onto it, you do so wholly unfounded and literally wholly ‘unlawfully’!

    In Mark 16:9 especially, the word ‘sabbath’ has NEITHER meaning of <<the Law of Sabbath>> NOR meaning of the law of passover. Any religious connotation of the word or the phrase it is used in, ENDS with the fact the word ‘sabbath’ as part of the New Testament and Christian NAME of ‘the First Day OF THE WEEK’, is a Christian and New Testament ‘calendar-’ or ‘almanac-’ definition and function of and for ‘the First Day of the week’.

    When <<the word "Sabbath">> is used <<apart from the Law of Sabbath>> it is used as a word for any ‘sabbath “BESIDE MY SABBATHS" — “IN CONTRADISTINCTION TO MY SABBATHS”.

    Silly idea the word ‘sabbatou’ in Mark 16:9 and 1 must be translated ‘Sabbath’! ‘The First Sabbath' comes "AFTER the Sabbath"?! Silly indeed!

     
    #18 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 10, 2013
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  19. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Let the <objective minds> satisfied with the above be satisfied with the above ... as if it were any different ...

    My goodness!
     
    #19 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 10, 2013
  20. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Confession is good for the soul. Glad you agree with me. However, it is the Sabbath law that introduces all the feasts in Leviticus 23 is it not???? Yes it is. Hence, the Passover, feast of unleavened bread, etc. are all in the context of the Sabbath law.


    GE you know very well that the Greek expression translated "first day of the week" is an expression in direct connection with the Sabbath. Hence, the change of mia to proto and change of the plural to the singular does not change the fact that it is in direct association with the Sabbath as well. Except here it is the introduction to the "first Sabbath in a new series"
     
    #20 The Biblicist, Jul 10, 2013
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