Was it worth it?

[poncho]

Indeed :applause:

I knew this country was in big trouble the minute the necons co opted the republican party and turned it into their own little platform to push their paranoid delusions on the rest of us.

It was at George W. Bush's coronation that conservatism was stolen and replaced with fascism.

But don't get me wrong I don't blame Bush for it all I mean he was only the president. I think he might have been a good one to had it not been for the evil influence of his corporatist neocon handlers.

Remeber folks: Totalitarianism is totalitariansim whether it's Marxist or Fascist.

That hit the nail right square on the head!

You know we're in a deep pool of sewage when the corporatist authoritarians in the democrat and republican parties start holding hands and feeding us the same manure. About the only difference between the fascist lefties and the fascist righties is how they go about taking us to war. The lefties are eager to fund and arm violent factions to divide and weaken a nation before the conquest where as the righties are satisfied to look the other way and chomp on the bit while the lefties do it so they can take advantage of the "crisis" it creates to drop a million tons of bombs and claim "victory over evil" and strut around acting like they just saved the world from certain disaster.

Either way the corporations that supply the war machine make out like fat cats at a tuna cannery. There's just no incentive for peace when it might lead to a lower profit margin.

And all they need to keep doing it over and over is for we the people to remain divided and ignorant of our history and our heritage.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Could someone help me see the connection between being non-interventionist iin places like Iraq and being a Marxist/Leninist?

Not all are who hold to a non-interventionist ideology are Marxist/Leninist, and I did not say, for example, that you are. However, when blatantly false statements are made about the U.S. having imperialist aspirations, and falsely defining a hegemony, and doing so over and over and over again without intervention by staff -- as I believe the repetitive posting of non-Christian agendas are against BB rules -- then someone needs to say something.

Did you not notice the loud cries of anguish and vitriolic responses, while continuing the false characterizations of certain political ideologies they hate?

 

[poncho]

Not all are who hold to a non-interventionist ideology are Marxist/Leninist, and I did not say, for example, that you are. However, when blatantly false statements are made about the U.S. having imperialist aspirations, and falsely defining a hegemony, and doing so over and over and over again without intervention by staff -- as I believe the repetitive posting of non-Christian agendas are against BB rules -- then someone needs to say something.

Did you not notice the loud cries of anguish and vitriolic responses, while continuing the false characterizations of certain political ideologies they hate?

Oh my gracious goodness DT did you hear that? We hate fascism! Well gee golly wow are we bad or what?

Man you're sure piling it high today TND. Trotsky, Strauss and Machiavelli would be proud of the way you twist truth into lies and lies into truth.

"For the greater good, and beyond!"

Since when have you cared about following BB rules there mister "great insulter"? You've been trolling since you got here and started breaking the rules by posting huge oversize images.

Pssst . . . don't look now but your hypocrisy is showing again.

 

[prophet]

Oh my gracious goodness DT did you hear that? We hate fascism! Well gee golly wow are we bad or what?

Man you're sure piling it high today. Trotsky, Strauss and Machiavelli would be proud of the way you twist truth into lies and lies into truth.

"For the greater good, and beyond!"

Since when have you cared about following BB rules there mister "great insulter"? You've been trolling since you got here and started breaking the rules by posting huge oversize images.

Pssst . . . don't look now but your hypocrisy is showing again.

You forgot Nietzsche.

 

[poncho]

You forgot Nietzsche.

Trotsky, Strauss and Machiavelli have been bigger influences on the neocons I think.

Evidently Machiavelli has had the greatest influence on TND. I would guess he doesn't think we've read The Prince. If he did maybe he wouldn't try to serve us all a big heapin helpin of "the noble lie" so often.

But Strauss clearly comes out in TND's hatred and fear of individual liberty and Trotsky can be heard echoing in his belief of "perpetual revolution" and "creative destruction".

The sad reality is poor TND probably doesn't even know who's philosophies he's emulating. Most neocons don't.

 

[prophet]

Trotsky, Strauss and Machiavelli have been bigger influences on the neocons I think.

Evidently Machiavelli has had the greatest influence on TND. I would guess he doesn't think we've read The Prince. If he did maybe he wouldn't try to serve us all a big heapin helpin of "the noble lie" so often.

But Strauss clearly comes out in TND's hatred and fear of individual liberty and Trotsky can be heard echoing in his belief of "perpetual revolution" and "creative destruction".

The sad reality is poor TND probably doesn't even know who's philosophies he's emulating. Most neocons don't.

I think you would probably find that they are students of Kristol, Nixon, Wolfowitz, Abrams, Cheney, Limbaugh, Rumsfeld, and Condy Rice.

 

[prophet]

Happy May Day, everyone!

How to celebrate?

Criticize a Neocon.
Get called anti-Semitic.
Point out logical fallicies of forcing liberty on a sovereign nation.
Get called a Commie.

Happy May Day.

 

[poncho]

I think you would probably find that they are students of Kristol, Nixon, Wolfowitz, Abrams, Cheney, Limbaugh, Rumsfeld, and Condy Rice.

Who learned how to tell the "noble lie" from Leo Strauss and Niccolo Machiavelli. You forgot Michael Ledeen. He was the big time neocon fan of Machiavelli and Mussolini. Ledeen even wrote a love letter to Machiavelli in the form of a book.

It's called, Machiavelli on Modern Leadership: Why Machiavelli's Iron Rules Are As Timely And Important Today As Five Centuries Ago. And is available through Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Machiavelli-Modern-Leadership-Machiavellis-Important/dp/0312263562

Here's an "E copy" of Machaivelli's The Prince if anyone is interested in reading it for themselves. http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/1232

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Oh my gracious goodness DT did you hear that? We hate fascism! Well gee golly wow are we bad or what?

Yeah, I guess if we speak out against the creeping fascism in America, the USA's propping up of corrupt governments, or our nation endlessly engaging in preemptive wars (in which countless innocent lives are lost), that this somehow, in the mind of our resident Thought Policeman, exemplifies a non-Christian agenda which therefore most be banned from the BaptistBoard.

On the contrary, I think it's certainly the Christian's duty to point out that not everything our nation does, as great a beginning as it may have had, is consistent with the teachings of Christ, no matter how much some folks like to wrap the Cross in the Star-spangled banner. If we can appropriately critique the ills of American society domestically, then we can likewise to the same when it comes to our nation's hypocritical foreign policy decisions and military actions.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Happy May Day, everyone!

How to celebrate?

Criticize a Neocon.
Get called anti-Semitic.
Point out logical fallicies of forcing liberty on a sovereign nation.
Get called a Commie.

Happy May Day.

Yep, that sums it up. :thumbsup:

 

[Doubting Thomas]

In the Bible we read how the people trumpeted Jesus' arrival in Jerusalem. The King had come. They would soon be free. This was the general theme through the Jewish world about the Messiah. The cry for war, for revenge, for blood to be shed. These were the same people who, when they realized Jesus came as a humble servant, full of humility, willing to be the lamb for the slaughter turned and called for His crucifixion. We are called to imitate Him. To live our lives like Him. Jesus the warrior has not come... so why do so many act like that when the humble servant is who we are to seek to be?

A great many blood thirsty Christians, who spend so very little time participating in the great commission, are so eager to assure countless thousands are doomed to hell for not much more than a political idealogy based on anything except what the God we believe in taught us.

We are to take HIS message to the world in love and servitude, not strapped to a bomb.

Very well said! :applause:

 

[poncho]

Yeah, I guess if we speak out against the creeping fascism in America, the USA's propping up of corrupt governments, or our nation endlessly engaging in preemptive wars (in which countless innocent lives are lost), that this somehow, in the mind of our resident Thought Policeman, exemplifies a non-Christian agenda which therefore most be banned from the BaptistBoard.

Oh I know and he complains so loudly about the liberals and marxists in the left hand party when they want to shut down their political opponents and ban their speech.

Go figure. Pssst . . . oh nevermind.

On the contrary, I think it's certainly the Christian's duty to point out that not everything our nation does, as great a beginning as it may have had, is consistent with the teachings of Christ, no matter how much some folks like to wrap the Cross in the Star-spangled banner. If we can appropriately critique the ills of American society domestically, then we can likewise to the same when it comes to our nation's hypocritical foreign policy decisions and military actions.

I couldn't agree more. Myself I've never been a fan of marxism or fascism so when I see it I say something.

Wish more people could see it. But I guess they're to busy getting their opinions downloaded directly into their minds by the multinational corporations and all their hired talking heads.

 

[prophet]

Oh I know and he complains so loudly about the liberals and marxists in the left hand party when they want to shut down their political opponents and ban their speech.

Go figure. Pssst . . . oh nevermind.



I couldn't agree more. Myself I've never been a fan of marxism or fascism so when I see it I say something.

Wish more people could see it. But I guess they're to busy getting their opinions downloaded directly into their minds by the multinational corporations and all their hired talking heads.

Well, it's been fun fellas, but I have to go recruit for the next Crusade.

It seems the Holy Lands are being overrun by Islamiic Terrorists.

Calling all Catholics, Neocons, Rahm Immanuel's Dad, Zionists Charismaniacs, and politicians with queer kids....time to rock the Casbah!

 

[poncho]

Well, it's been fun fellas, but I have to go recruit for the next Crusade.

It seems the Holy Lands are being overrun by Islamiic Terrorists.

Calling all Catholics, Neocons, Rahm Immanuel's Dad, Zionists Charismaniacs, and politicians with queer kids....time to rock the Casbah!

Thousands of our young people dead, thousands more maimed and wounded, thousands committing suicide, thousands of Iraqis dead, 500,000 Iraqi children dead because of sanctions alone, millions left homeless and made into refugees, Islamic terrorism is spreading like a wild fire, trillions spent and still it goes on. Was it worth it?

Well yeah, the global banks and corporations got a nice percentage of the Iraqi banks and control of the economy and resources. The people who supply the war machine as always cashed in for a nice tidy profit, some politicians got to pose as saviors and our great grand kids will be paying the bankers back 110% of the thin air that financed the whole thing with their labor and property. if they can find a low paying job with some multinational corporation that still employs American workers.

But alas now it's all winding down to a dull roar so now's the time to start another war! Kill those Russians they're so bad bad bad! Kill those Russians or we'll all be sad sad sad!

I guess it all depends on who you are. To those who always benefit from war it was indeed worth it. For those that always end up paying in blood and treasure? Well, who cares so long as we can still wave our Chinese made flags and stick Chinese made yellow ribbons on our cars to show how much we love our country and support the troops. It's all good here in the land of the dupes.

For the greater good and beyond! :wavey:

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

However, when blatantly false statements are made about the U.S. having imperialist aspirations, and falsely defining a hegemony, and doing so over and over and over again without intervention by staff -- as I believe the repetitive posting of non-Christian agendas are against BB rules -- then someone needs to say something.

What non-Christian agendas are being espoused in the politics or news forum, especially in this discussion?

What are perceived as lies are posted on both sides of political debate. That does not make them lies - it makes them different perceptions of the same issue.

 

[preachinjesus]

I too would be interested in seeing what specific non-Christian agendas are being posted on this board and in this thread...and by whom?

 

[righteousdude2]

To answer that....

..

I assume that since the US has a moral imperative to get rid of the bad guys that some of the folks here would support President Obama if he sent troops to North Korea and/or Syria

.....NO! First of all, Obama didn't see it worth his time to save four lifes in Benghazi ... so NK and Syria or the Ukraine or Israel are places he would not send anyone! We can be sure of that. He doesn't have the ability or knowledge or waht it takes to defend this nation's interests or to protect our allies! That is the crux of the problem!

And you have yet to answer my question as to your asking your fellow countrymen in Ireland if their long time fued with Englan and the Queen and the the church was worth the price! Well ... was it? Ask them, and get back with me! Iraq was worth nothing less than Ireland, or vice versa! War is war! It is not what most want, but evil finds a way to perpetuate it, regardless of what we want!

believe me, it was a Democratic POTUS who sent me a letter to come fight my country! And I wasn't gung ho, but I still had to go! If things were different, would you have gone, to KOrea, Nam, Iraq! Of course, one must remember, Korea and NAM were via the draft!

Iraq, it was an all voluntary military~ So maybe you should visit Walter Reed hospital the next time you're in the states, and ask those men and women rehabbing there if it was worth the price? I think they'd tell you YES!

While I respect your views and the right to ask this question, you have not answered mine ... would you be so cocky if Ireland and England were still sniping and bombing each other?

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

..


And you have yet to answer my question as to your asking your fellow countrymen in Ireland if their long time fued with Englan and the Queen and the the church was worth the price! Well ... was it? Ask them, and get back with me! Iraq was worth nothing less than Ireland, or vice versa! War is war! It is not what most want, but evil finds a way to perpetuate it, regardless of what we want!

Ireland and the UK were directly involved in that conflict. It wasn't to fight a war where neither had any business. The US and Iraq is not analogous.

Was the US action against England in the 18th century worth it? That's an entirely different discussion.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

believe me, it was a Democratic POTUS who sent me a letter to come fight my country! And I wasn't gung ho, but I still had to go! If things were different, would you have gone, to KOrea, Nam, Iraq! Of course, one must remember, Korea and NAM were via the draft!

?

I really do not like personalisation of topics, but will play along on this one since my view here seems to have me labelled as a Marxist, Leninist, socialist, anti-American, anti-military, leftist peacenik.

I think I have answered that above. My family has always been military and my son-in-law (two tours in Iraq) and one of my sons are serving today. My dad was retired army (serving in both the Korean and Vietnam conflicts) My brothers and brothers-in-law all served. In 1973-1976 I was in ROTC preparing for a military career. I think that shows my willingness to serve. In 1976 while preparing for Ranger Camp the army made the decision that the broken neck I suffered in 1973 disqualified me from service.

During that time we faced a demonstration at the ROTC facility from those supposed peaceniks. I was spat at and shouted at. While I recognise it was not combat, I was ready to serve in whatever capacity my nation called on me to serve.

While you may disagree with my views, please don't try to fabricate the notion that I am in any way against the military.

My non-interventionist views come because I do care and I don't think we should lie down and let military personnel suffer and die at the hands of politicians and their corporate donors.

We are in a state of perpetual war because politicians in both parties like their donations from the companies that get rich on war and the companies like their profits. It is not un-American to question their decisions.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

AMEN SN!

Rand Paul: Some Evangelicals 'Too Eager for War'

Excellent link - thanks