Here's the thing, God knows those who are His, those He chose from before the creation of the world.[Ephesians 1:4] We do not know those who He chose, so we are to preach and witness to all, seeing that through the word of God, ppl are saved.
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2 Peter 2:1 shows Jesus died for the non-elect
- Thread starter ICHTHUS
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I can never understand why this verse from Ephesians is used to try to prove "election"? It says in context:
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved."
The "choosing" here is clearly "that we should be holy and without blame", and the "predestination" is to "adoption as sons", for those who BECOME believers in Jesus Christ. I see no where in the Bible anything about "predestination to eternal life".
Brother, you have man in the center of your theology. That is why you must wrest every scripture that makes God the One who has the sole right to save Whosoever He will save by His own Sovereign choice to your destruction.
Nope. We were chosen in Him. But try again.
What about Ac. 13.48?
1 Cor 6:20 for ye were bought with a price: glorify God therefore in your body.
'You' are the saints in Corinth, to whom Paul is writing to. 'You' is not everyman everywhere.
Believers are bought. Unbelievers are not. If all are bought, then God is unjust to deny any man salvation.
Chris
2 Peter was written to believers as well.
(2Pet 1:1 [ESV2011])
Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
Chris
Bought implies an agreement. Believers are not STOLEN. Believer AGREES.
SATAN IS A BELIEVER. All this stupidity stems from the fact that DUMB PEOPLE exist and ASSUME BELIEVE = ALLEGIANCE and their dumber brethren who just accept a EVIL god who spiritually rapes allegiance.
God is incapable of denying salvation and to say "GOD DENIES SALVATION" means his perfect character is still a "mystery" to you.
1 John 4
8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
Someone who remains unrepentant would not know God if Love slapped them upside the head.
John 14
6Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
Denial would mean never hearing those words. If you don't get rid of God then you always have a perfect example of salvation, the top motivator.
The best way to have God deny salvation, is Murder love and put tape over mercy's mouth and then Say we need "justice" to satisfied by the currency of suffering. But when Jesus died there is no higher currency of suffering that could be paid by anyone.
To threaten anyone with another punishment means you have to accuse Jesus not being the most precious thing, i'm talking to the accuser.
Something bad happening to God has to be the worst thing for everyone.
That's why "the sincere" love God's command and "the insincere" always weighs whether it pays salvation to do this or that.
Good day!
I see that some could think that this verse teaches that God elects those who are saved to eternal life. A casual reading of this verse on its own might tempt some to conclude this way. However, I believe that to get a correct understanding we must look at the context. Lets start from verse 46:
"Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. For so the Lord has commanded us: ‘I have set you as a light to the Gentiles, That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth. Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."
The Greek word translated "appointed" (or "ordained", as in some vers), is "τεταγμένοι", which is from the root "τάσσω", and is used here in the middle voice. This means that to "appoint oneself".
We read in verse 46 Paul and Barnabas said that the Jews "reject it [the Gospel], and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life", which is something that they had done in response to the preaching of the Gospel. I think this passage actually shows the Calvinistic teaching of Predestination is incorrect. Note what Paul says here, that it was the Jews, and not God, who considered themselves unworthy of eternal life. Something he would not have said if he believed that these were Predestined. Then we see Paul and Barnabas take the Gospel to the Gentiles, who, unlike the Jews, " were glad and glorified the word of the Lord". And, because of their acceptance of the Gospel, they "appointed themselves" to eternal life, by believing the same Gospel message the Jews had themselves refused.
I encourage you to read the following link by James White, the director of Alpha and Omega Ministries. He ably rebuts this argument. If you choose not to read it, I would at least like to leave you with a few of his statements regarding your proposed interpretation of Ac. 13.48:
Are we to seriously believe that the idea is, “and as many as had disposed themselves to eternal life right then and there believed”? What competent scholar has ever translated the text this way? What translation? Not even the Jehovah’s Witnesses were that bold! No, those who had been ordained to eternal life believed.
Acts 13:48 Revisited and Dishonesty Exposed - Alpha and Omega Ministries
And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. -Ac. 16.14
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James White's arguments are based on his understanding of the passage from a Calvinistic understanding, and his conclusions cannot contradict this.
He shows his real lack of understanding of the Greek grammar here, with his statement,
"False. I have argued that if you are going to give a middle translation you cannot simply say, “Well, the form is a middle/passive, so I’ll go with the middle.” Any serious translator of the NT knows the passive predominates in such situations, and that one must defend any translation where one insists upon taking a non-normative reading over a normative one. So again, I would challenge our author to produce any statement where I have said “the middle voice is impossible in this verse.” I have rejected the reading of the middle on a simple basis: no one has yet to provide any compelling reason to adopt it."
It is a known fact in the Greek here, that "τεταγμένοι" can be either in the passive or middle voice. The former sees God as the author of the action, and the latter as those Gentiles as the author. But, White has not taken into account another important rule in Greek grammar, which says that the voice of the word is to be determined by the context that it is used in. He rejects it not because the Greek grammatical evidence is against the middle voice here, but because he simply cannot accept this fact due to his predisposed thinking as a Calvinist. I have already shown in my opening remarks, that the context of the passage, with the Jews "themselves" rejecting the Gospel, which is an action that is seen as "middle voice", as they "did it"; and then the Gentiles who are said to have embraced the Gospel Message preached to them. There is no point in using Scripture, if we are going to make it tell us what we want to hear, and not what it actually says, which is what White has done.
The passage of Lydia is no problem, as it clearly says that she was "a worshiper of God", which means she was already seeking the Lord, before the Lord sent Paul with the Gospel for her salvation. the Bible exhorts us to "seek the Lord while He may be found". The same is the case of Cornelius in Acts 10, who also was seeking the Truth and the Lord sent Peter with the Gospel for salvation. What do you make of verse 35?
"Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him"
By the way I am not Arminian, but a Bible-believing Christian.
Again, I would ask, "What competent scholar has ever translated the text this way? What translation?" Are you claiming that all the English translators are biased Calvinists and you are more competent at translating the scriptures than they?
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. -Ro. 3.11
Lydia is no exception.
My friend, what I am saying is what the Greek grammar says. there are rules which apply. And it is a known fact to those who study Greek, that in our present case, where the word can be either in the passive or middle voice, that this is determined by its context. The Bible uses the Greek language because it is very precise, even more so than Hebrew, and in situations as we have in Acts 13:48, we are not left to guess what the meaning is, as it can then be used either way. It is without any doubt in the "middle voice". Why not ask James White to see what he makes of what I have said, and whether he can disprove it. I am open to learn so I will see where I am wrong, if shown to be, and gladly change. But will not be persuaded by theological arguments that are not backed by the language use.
Charles Ellicott has this to say, who was a first-rate Greek scholar:
"As many as were ordained to eternal life believed.—Better, as many as were disposed for. The words seem to the English reader to support the Calvinistic dogma of divine decrees as determining the belief or unbelief of men, and it is not improbable, looking to the general drift of the theology of the English Church in the early part of the seventeenth century, that the word “ordained” was chosen as expressing that dogma. It runs, with hardly any variation, through all the chief English versions, the Rhemish giving the stronger form “pre-ordinate.” The Greek word, however, does not imply more than that they fell in with the divine order which the Jews rejected. They were as soldiers who take the place assigned to them in God’s great army. The quasi-middle force of the passive form of the verb is seen in the Greek of Act_20:13, where a compound form of it is rightly rendered “for so he had appointed,” and might have been translated for so he was disposed. It lies in the nature of the case that belief was followed by a public profession of faith, but the word “believed” does not, as some have said, involve such a profession."
"As many as were ordained to eternal life believed.—Better, as many as were disposed for. The words seem to the English reader to support the Calvinistic dogma of divine decrees as determining the belief or unbelief of men, and it is not improbable, looking to the general drift of the theology of the English Church in the early part of the seventeenth century, that the word “ordained” was chosen as expressing that dogma. It runs, with hardly any variation, through all the chief English versions, the Rhemish giving the stronger form “pre-ordinate.” The Greek word, however, does not imply more than that they fell in with the divine order which the Jews rejected. They were as soldiers who take the place assigned to them in God’s great army. The quasi-middle force of the passive form of the verb is seen in the Greek of Act_20:13, where a compound form of it is rightly rendered “for so he had appointed,” and might have been translated for so he was disposed. It lies in the nature of the case that belief was followed by a public profession of faith, but the word “believed” does not, as some have said, involve such a profession."
Please also see 1 Thessalonians 1:9
"For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God" - King James Version
God no doubt through the Holy Spirit convicted these people of their sins and need for Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour. They then responded by themselves turning to God. here also we have the "middle voice". But nonetheless God is always the author of our salvation.
"For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God" - King James Version
God no doubt through the Holy Spirit convicted these people of their sins and need for Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour. They then responded by themselves turning to God. here also we have the "middle voice". But nonetheless God is always the author of our salvation.
Again, I would ask, "What competent scholar has ever translated the text this way? What translation?" What translation did Charles Ellicott produce? You claim that the Gentiles in Ac. 13.48 were "disposed to eternal life." Did that escape the notice of hundreds of English translators over hundreds of years? To claim that Ac. 13.48, as it now stands, was translated "to support the Calvinistic dogma of divine decrees as determining the belief or unbelief of men" and was due to "the general drift of the theology of the English Church in the early part of the seventeenth century" does not carry much weight in light of the facts. The following is Ac. 13.48 as it reads in the New American Bible, a Roman Catholic translation:
The Gentiles were delighted when they heard this and glorified the word of the Lord. All who were destined for eternal life came to believe,
Certainly you cannot claim that Roman Catholics mistranslated Ac. 13.48 for the aforementioned reasons.
That would then make you a "Bible-believing Christian" who agrees with Arminians that election is conditional.
Why did they turn to God from idols to serve the living and true God?
Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. -1 Th. 1.4
...or, in this case, 1 Th. 1.9!
Do you preach to every creature? Snakes, spiders, dolphins, jelly fish, etc? [emoji41] Go get em Aqua Man!
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