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Total Depravity vs Free Will

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MennoSota

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I'm simply saying that since He has foreknowledge how can we know whether He predestines everything to happen?
The two are one and the same. His foreknowledge predestines our salvation. See Ephesians 1 for more clarity.

Semi-pelagian is the term used for one who attempts to mix free-will and predestination in some form of interplay. It foregoes logic and supports a feeling over fact.
 

HankD

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In John 3 the birth from above is compared to the birth here below.
Certain anthologies have been made by some.

However no one speaks of the conception of life and the the incubation of that life in the womb before the birth event.

Is there a conception of spiritual life and then an incubation of this life before the birth event from above?
Calling, conviction?

If I were to categorize these things I would say "calling" is the conception, conviction/reproval of sin the birth pangs before the birth event.

Just thinking.

HankD
 

Martin Andrews

Member
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The two are one and the same. His foreknowledge predestines our salvation. See Ephesians 1 for more clarity.

Semi-pelagian is the term used for one who attempts to mix free-will and predestination in some form of interplay. It foregoes logic and supports a feeling over fact.

This is complete nonsense. No where in the Bible says that because God "foreknows" all things, which He must as God, that He "predestines" them? If this is true, then God must also "predestines" our sins, which would make Him its AUTHOR. In which case He cannot ever send any sinner to hell, because all they were doing was what God had "predestined" in the first place. This is what Paul calls, "doctrine of demons"!
 

Martin Andrews

Member
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In John 3 the birth from above is compared to the birth here below.
Certain anthologies have been made by some.

However no one speaks of the conception of life and the the incubation of that life in the womb before the birth event.

Is there a conception of spiritual life and then an incubation of this life before the birth event from above?
Calling, conviction?

If I were to categorize these things I would say "calling" is the conception, conviction/reproval of sin the birth pangs before the birth event.

Just thinking.

HankD

A sinner has to be convicted of their sins first by the Holy Spirit, Who shows them that they are hell-bound and in need of a Saviour, and points them to Jesus Christ for their salvation.
 

Martin Andrews

Member
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No, I am not missing the point. The word 'world' does not mean everybody who has ever lived, but it does cover the world. Not everyone is His sheep. A Gideon recently spoke at church and said that in India alone, 1.3 BILLION ppl still haven't heard about the Christ. Those who die in their sins, how can the Spirit convict them? It is through the word of God the Spirit works to bring conviction to them.

God is Just and makes sure that no person will end up in hell who should not be there

Them rejecting the gospel does not condemn them, seeing thy are already condemned. If they reject it, it does not make them condemned...they are already condemned, and that makes them reject it. You are making the gospel a message of lostness and not hope. What I mean is if they are condemned by rejecting it, then if they do not hear the gospel, then they are not condemned.

Wrong, Jesus Himself says in John chapter 5, that the Jews were responsible for their rejection of Him. The Gospel is of Hope, and not as Calvinism shows it as one of despair!

Jesus told the religious leaders in Israel that the word had no place in them because they were not His sheep. Those who reject it until the day they die were not His to begin with.

Well ALL sinners are not His sheep, it is only after they are converted that they become His sheep
 

FollowTheWay

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The two are one and the same. His foreknowledge predestines our salvation. See Ephesians 1 for more clarity.

Semi-pelagian is the term used for one who attempts to mix free-will and predestination in some form of interplay. It foregoes logic and supports a feeling over fact.
You're repeating my statement, that foreknowledge and predestination are indistinguishable on this side of heaven. Anything new to add? We agree.
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
which then saves them, which is BORN AGAIN
Now we see the root of your problem in understanding. You says that "save[d]" equates to "born again."

That is not true. Salvation is the RESULT of being born again.

We are born again now, but we are not entirely saved. We are saved positionally, from the penalty for sin, and we are being saved from the power of sin, but not yet saved from the presence of sin. (Positional Sanctification, Progressive Sanctification, and Permanent Sanctification.)

So lay aside your silly strawman assertion that anybody has said we are, or even can be, born again twice. I'm sorry but that is just a stupid assertion.
 

Darrell C

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Total depravity is the fallen state of human beings as a result of original sin. The doctrine of total depravity asserts that people are, as a result of the fall, not inclined or even able to love God wholly with heart, mind, and strength, but rather are inclined by nature to serve their own will and desires and to reject the rule of God. Even religion and (philanthropy) are wicked to God because they originate from a selfish human desire and are not done to the glory of God.

Therefore, in (Reformed theology), if God is to save anyone God must,(predestine) call, or elect individuals to salvation since fallen man does not want to, and is indeed incapable of, choosing God.

However, in Arminian theology (prevenient grace) (or "enabling grace") does reach through total depravity to enable people to respond to the salvation offered by God in Jesus Christ.

If man according to the Calvinist view is unable by being Totally Depraved in his entire being, and the way I understand this doctrine, head to toe, body, mind, heart and soul, where is his free will to choose God?... Brother Glen

The answer is given us here:



John 16:7-9


King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;



The natural man, while being ministered to by the Spirit of God, remains natural. During this ministry he is enlightened to truth and it is through this ministry that he "chooses." While this could be called "free will," it must be remembered that this does not change his condition of depravity and inability to seek after God.

God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, whereas the debate concerning Calvinism and the Arminian view imposes men reconciling themselves to God. This reverses the order taught us in Scripture.


God bless.
 

Darrell C

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Can't RE-Generate something that was never there.

That's like someone cutting out a piece of glass handing it to you and saying REPAIR my television.

Regenerate implies a original perfect condition.

Why not use a term you mean like GENERATE? Only the heart generated by God can hear, believe, repent and obey.



The "RE" in REgenerate is there for a reason.

In large part I would agree, however, regeneration involves a process which imparts to the one regenerated something that was never there during that individual's lifetime (from conception), and that is the Life God imparts when He immerses that individual into Himself. It is Eternal Life because we become one with God, Who is Eternal Life.

So we cannot create a scenario in which the one regenerated is restored to a condition lost somewhere during his/her lifetime. The restorative quality goes back to what was lost in Adam, which was communion and relationship to and with God. Post Fall no man is conceived and born into this world in relationship with God, and when they are "born again" it is not a repeat of their first birth, but something totally new to their experience.


God bless.
 

FollowTheWay

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The two are one and the same. His foreknowledge predestines our salvation. See Ephesians 1 for more clarity.

Semi-pelagian is the term used for one who attempts to mix free-will and predestination in some form of interplay. It foregoes logic and supports a feeling over fact.
I most certainly don't agree with Pelagianism and would call that a heresy.

Pelagianism
Pelagianism views humanity as basically good and morally unaffected by the Fall. It denies the imputation of Adam's sin, original sin, total depravity, and substitutionary atonement. It simultaneously views man as fundamentally good and in possession of libertarian free will. With regards to salvation, it teaches that man has the ability in and of himself (apart from divine aid) to obey God and earn eternal salvation. Pelagianism is overwhelmingly incompatible with the Bible and was historically opposed by Augustine (354-430), Bishop of Hippo, leading to its condemnation as a heresy at Council of Carthage in 418 A.D. These condemnations were summarily ratified at the Council of Ephesus (A.D. 431).

I haven't thought about this much recently but as I go back over information I've saved on the topic of Calvinism and Arminianism, I would also say I do not agree with the theology of Semi-Pelagianism as framed in the early church debates either. I believe that salvation is by grace through faith and is freely offered to all (general grace). I do not accept the concept of particular grace. So, in that regard I would fit more in the category of General rather than Particular Baptist. These days I prefer the general label of Christian. I don't think the differences between Baptists and Methodists or Presbyterians for example are important enough to not fellowship with them and to join with them in Christ's general command to go into all the world and preach the gospel.
 

Darrell C

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Site Supporter
Now we see the root of your problem in understanding. You says that "save[d]" equates to "born again."

While in a New Testament/Covenant sense "saved equates to born again," this is not true prior to the establishment of the New Covenant. The men and women of faith in the Old Testament were indeed "saved," meaning their eternal destiny was assured while they were alive (through faith), they were not, however...born again.


That is not true. Salvation is the RESULT of being born again.

Salvation is the result of the determination of God, and this, usually, is according to the response of the individual to the revelation God provides them (though we do not credit them salvation through meritorious effort). A response is not always something controlled by those responding. One who is drowning, for instance, instinctively reaches out and seeks to grasp anything solid that will keep them above water. So too, with the response of men and women to the ministry of God in their lives, often we could see the response as inevitable. An example might be someone getting angry because another member disagreed with them. One could be on a mission to control their anger, yet a response of anger can still occur.

Regeneration does not occur until first the individual actually understands their condition, and being enlightened to their state, respond to God in faith. We must also keep in mind that being enlightened to the Way of Truth does not mean the response is always obedience to the Gospel:


2 Peter 2:20-21

King James Version (KJV)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.



The false teachers here (equivalent to the false prophets of the former Age/s) had been shown, and new the way of righteousness, and they turned from it. Again, the response is not always controlled, and rejection of the Gospel by far caters to man's proclivity to rebel against the truth God shows them.


God bless.
 

MennoSota

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I most certainly don't agree with Pelagianism and would call that a heresy.

Pelagianism
Pelagianism views humanity as basically good and morally unaffected by the Fall. It denies the imputation of Adam's sin, original sin, total depravity, and substitutionary atonement. It simultaneously views man as fundamentally good and in possession of libertarian free will. With regards to salvation, it teaches that man has the ability in and of himself (apart from divine aid) to obey God and earn eternal salvation. Pelagianism is overwhelmingly incompatible with the Bible and was historically opposed by Augustine (354-430), Bishop of Hippo, leading to its condemnation as a heresy at Council of Carthage in 418 A.D. These condemnations were summarily ratified at the Council of Ephesus (A.D. 431).

I haven't thought about this much recently but as I go back over information I've saved on the topic of Calvinism and Arminianism, I would also say I do not agree with the theology of Semi-Pelagianism as framed in the early church debates either. I believe that salvation is by grace through faith and is freely offered to all (general grace). I do not accept the concept of particular grace. So, in that regard I would fit more in the category of General rather than Particular Baptist. These days I prefer the general label of Christian. I don't think the differences between Baptists and Methodists or Presbyterians for example are important enough to not fellowship with them and to join with them in Christ's general command to go into all the world and preach the gospel.
Most Christians are semi-pelagian in the US and are syncretists.
 

Van

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Total Spiritual Inability is fake doctrine not found in scripture. Both Calvinists and Arminians embrace the fake doctrine.

Scripture teaches natural men of flesh have limited spiritual ability in that they can understand spiritual milk, but not spiritual meat.

Until or unless a person understands this truth, their house is built on sand.
 

Darrell C

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I most certainly don't agree with Pelagianism and would call that a heresy.

Pelagianism
Pelagianism views humanity as basically good and morally unaffected by the Fall. It denies the imputation of Adam's sin, original sin, total depravity, and substitutionary atonement. It simultaneously views man as fundamentally good and in possession of libertarian free will. With regards to salvation, it teaches that man has the ability in and of himself (apart from divine aid) to obey God and earn eternal salvation. Pelagianism is overwhelmingly incompatible with the Bible and was historically opposed by Augustine (354-430), Bishop of Hippo, leading to its condemnation as a heresy at Council of Carthage in 418 A.D. These condemnations were summarily ratified at the Council of Ephesus (A.D. 431).

I haven't thought about this much recently but as I go back over information I've saved on the topic of Calvinism and Arminianism, I would also say I do not agree with the theology of Semi-Pelagianism as framed in the early church debates either. I believe that salvation is by grace through faith and is freely offered to all (general grace). I do not accept the concept of particular grace. So, in that regard I would fit more in the category of General rather than Particular Baptist. These days I prefer the general label of Christian. I don't think the differences between Baptists and Methodists or Presbyterians for example are important enough to not fellowship with them and to join with them in Christ's general command to go into all the world and preach the gospel.


It largely depends on what kind of Baptist is in view in regards to the differences between them and Methodists and Presbyterians. As far as man being "basically good and morally unaffected by the Fall," I would have to address that from two perspectives. The first, we understand that man was created in the image and likeness of God, and in some respects we retain that distinction in Creation, however, Scripture makes it clear explicitly and implicitly that man will, despite his best efforts...fall short.

The reason is that the relationship man (Adam) had with God when he was created was lost, and because of our separation from God we have no recourse but to sin. Now while, again, I would agree that man has the capacity for good (on a human and earthly level), the sad fact is that nothing he does, no amount of righteousness he achieves...restores relationship with GOd that he might be restored to relationship with God.

Only through Christ's death in our place do we have the means of the penalty of the inevitable sin we will commit being paid, through which we are restored to relationship with God.

So I view Total Depravity as a valid Doctrine.


God bless.
 

utilyan

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So all you elect folks now have free will and are not totally depraved since we are fully regenerated, right? :Whistling
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
Total Spiritual Inability is fake doctrine not found in scripture. Both Calvinists and Arminians embrace the fake doctrine.

Scripture teaches natural men of flesh have limited spiritual ability in that they can understand spiritual milk, but not spiritual meat.

Until or unless a person understands this truth, their house is built on sand.
1 Corinthians 2:14 Now the natural man doesn’t receive the things of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can’t know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Now I have choose who I am going to believe. God or Van? Let me think about it. TIMES UP! I believe God. Sorry, Van, you lose. Again.
 

Martin Andrews

Member
Site Supporter
Now we see the root of your problem in understanding. You says that "save[d]" equates to "born again."

That is not true. Salvation is the RESULT of being born again.

We are born again now, but we are not entirely saved. We are saved positionally, from the penalty for sin, and we are being saved from the power of sin, but not yet saved from the presence of sin. (Positional Sanctification, Progressive Sanctification, and Permanent Sanctification.)

So lay aside your silly strawman assertion that anybody has said we are, or even can be, born again twice. I'm sorry but that is just a stupid assertion.

Scripture for this, "We are born again now, but we are not entirely saved. We are saved positionally, from the penalty for sin, and we are being saved from the power of sin, but not yet saved from the presence of sin" WHERE in the Bible do we read "We are born again now, but we are not entirely saved"? this man-made RUBBISH!
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
Scripture for this, "We are born again now, but we are not entirely saved. We are saved positionally, from the penalty for sin, and we are being saved from the power of sin, but not yet saved from the presence of sin" WHERE in the Bible do we read "We are born again now, but we are not entirely saved"? this man-made RUBBISH!
First of all, the bible is not "rubbish." It is the inspired word of God.

(Romans 6:11). Once salvation has begun, we are no longer under sin’s dominion (Romans 6:14). There is a reorientation of desires, and we develop a love of righteousness. Paul calls it “slavery to righteousness” (Romans 6:17-18).

The second stage of salvation requires a lifetime to complete. As we grow in grace, we are gradually – but steadily – changing to be more like Jesus (2 Corinthians 3:18). This occurs in a process of daily spiritual renewal (Colossians 3:10). The apostle Paul himself was being saved (progressively) even as he ministered to others. Paul claimed that he had not reached perfection, but that he “pressed on” to attain everything Christ desired for him (Philippians 3:12).

The third and final stage of salvation occurs in the future. When believers die, their spirits go to be with Christ (2 Corinthians 5:6-8). Since nothing unclean can enter heaven (Revelation 21:27), we must be made perfect at that point. The salvation of the whole person—body, soul, and spirit—will finally be complete when the Lord Jesus returns and we receive glorified bodies (Philippians 3:21; 1 Corinthians 15:35-49).

God’s work in salvation involves all three members of the Trinity. God the Father is constantly at work in His children “to will and to work for His good pleasure” (Philippians 2:13). He changes our desires, making us want to please Him, and He empowers us to do so. Jesus earned our salvation on the cross and, in essence, has become our salvation (1 Corinthians 1:30) and the “perfecter of our faith” (Hebrews 12:2). The Holy Spirit is the primary agent of our (progressive) salvation (1 Corinthians 6:11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:2), and He is the one who produces in us the fruit of salvation (Galatians 5:22-23).

Our role in (progressive) salvation is both passive and active. Passively, we are to trust God to save us, presenting our bodies to God (Romans 6:13; 12:1) and yielding to the Holy Spirit. “It is God's will that you should be saved” (1 Thessalonians 4:3), and God will have His way.

Actively, we are responsible to choose to do what is right. “Each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable” (1 Thessalonians 4:4). This involves putting to death the “misdeeds of the body” (Romans 8:13), striving for holiness (Hebrews 12:14), fleeing immorality (1 Corinthians 6:18), cleansing ourselves from every defilement (2 Corinthians 7:1), and making every effort to supplement our faith (2 Peter 1:5-11).

Both the passive role and the active role are necessary for a healthy Christian life. To emphasize the passive role tends to lead to spiritual laziness and a neglect of spiritual discipline. The end result of this course of action is a lack of maturity. To emphasize the active role can lead to legalism, pride, and self-righteousness. The end result of this is a joyless Christian life. We must remember that we pursue holiness, but only as God empowers us to do so. The end result is a consistent, mature Christian life that faithfully reflects the nature of our holy God.

John makes it clear that we will never be totally free from sin in this life (1 John 1:8-10). Thankfully, the work God has begun in us He will finish (Philippians 1:6).
 

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Scripture for this, "We are born again now, but we are not entirely saved. We are saved positionally, from the penalty for sin, and we are being saved from the power of sin, but not yet saved from the presence of sin" WHERE in the Bible do we read "We are born again now, but we are not entirely saved"? this man-made RUBBISH!
Do you have your glorified resurrected body yet?

HankD
 
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