Did You Love the Light or the Darkness?

[InTheLight]

No one who God is not drawing to Christ - no man on his own, seeks God.

Then your theology has a big problem.

Churches are full of lost people seeking God, every Sunday.
Calvinists say that those people are being drawn to Christ (you just said it, I quoted you.)
Calvinists also say that anyone that God draws will be saved.

So, how do you reconcile the fact that people that seek God don't get saved?

 

[thatbrian]

Churches are full of lost people seeking God, every Sunday.

Yes. I agree that some of the people in a church are seeking God.

Calvinists say that those people are being drawn to Christ (you just said it, I quoted you.)

Not all of them.

Calvinists also say that anyone that God draws will be saved.

Yes! He does not fail. He will lose no one from His hand.

So, how do you reconcile the fact that people that seek God don't get saved?

You have certainly seen people who wish to have a better life, freedom from problems that trouble them. . . these people might be warming a pew, but they are not seeking the Living God. They are seeking THINGS that will keep them in control of their lives.

 

[kyredneck]

The Beatitudes are promised, but not yet delivered

I bet there's a whoooole lot of Calvinists that would disagree with your take on the beatitudes. They're not something 'to be delivered'. They're descriptive of those to whom the kingdom belongs, as in now, not in the far distant future

 

[thatbrian]

I bet there's a whoooole lot of Calvinists that would disagree with your take on the beatitudes. They're not something 'to be delivered'. They're descriptive of those to whom the kingdom belongs, as in now, not in the far distant future

You are right. I should have said, "realized".

 

[TCassidy]

Churches are full of lost people seeking God, every Sunday.

No, they are not. There is none that seeks after God.

Calvinists say that those people are being drawn to Christ (you just said it, I quoted you.)

Christ is, through Gospel preaching, drawing all who hear to Himself. That is the Universal Call of the Gospel.

Calvinists also say that anyone that God draws will be saved.

Not quite. Those whom the Father draws will be saved and Christ will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So, how do you reconcile the fact that people that seek God don't get saved?

Nobody seeks God. God seeks us.

Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

 

[kyredneck]

Then your theology has a big problem.

Churches are full of lost people seeking God, every Sunday.
Calvinists say that those people are being drawn to Christ (you just said it, I quoted you.)
Calvinists also say that anyone that God draws will be saved.

So, how do you reconcile the fact that people that seek God don't get saved?

So what sort of spin does your theology apply to this?:

44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day. Jn 6

(...wow, Jesus sounds like a Calvinist...)

 

[thatbrian]

Nobody seeks God. God seeks us.

Amen. Lost sheep - rebellious usurpers - men who are a god unto themselves - do not seek God. They are sought by him, and that brings tears to my eyes. "but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8) Do Arminians read these verses???

 

[TCassidy]

(...wow, Jesus sounds like a Calvinist...)

 

[thatbrian]

View attachment 1884

Sometimes humor can get a point across. Let's hope so.

 

[InTheLight]

No, they are not. There is none that seeks after God.

Uh-huh. Churches every Sunday are full of lost people.

The Magi sought out the Christ child.
Zaccheus sought out Jesus.
The Centurion sought out Jesus.
Blind men sought him out.
A DEMON POSSESSED man sought him out.
Jairus sought out Jesus.
The woman who had been bleeding for 12 years sought Jesus.
After healing many people, Jesus went to an isolated place and crowds looked for him and found him, imploring him not to leave them. (Luke 4:42)

Nobody seeks God. God seeks us.

Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Both can happen.

 

[TCassidy]

The Magi sought out the Christ child.

Why did the Magi seek Jesus and how did they know of Him?

Zaccheus sought out Jesus.

Why?

The Centurion sought out Jesus.

Why?

Blind men sought him out.

Why?

A DEMON POSSESSED man sought him out.

Why?

Jairus sought out Jesus.

Why?

The woman who had been bleeding for 12 years sought Jesus.

Why?

After healing many people, Jesus went to an isolated place and crowds looked for him and found him, imploring him not to leave them. (Luke 4:42)

Why did they want Him to stay?

Both can happen.

Not according to the bible. The lost CANNOT seek after the things of God. They don't accept spiritual things, they think spiritual things are foolish, they can't understand them, because they lack the indwelling Holy Spirit. That's bible.

 

[thatbrian]

Why do Christians not care what Christ says on this topic???

"No man can come to me. . ."

 

[kyredneck]

lost people

Lost sheep

The lost

Can someone show me from scripture that 'lost' means 'hell bound'? Or, for that matter, that 'saved' means 'saved from hell'?

 

[thatbrian]

Can someone show me from scripture that 'lost' means 'hell bound'? Or, for that matter, that 'saved' means 'saved from hell'?

What do you think these terms mean?

 

[utilyan]

Worth Reposting:

Scripture please, I want this verse----->> "ALL WHO GOD DRAWS HE SAVES"

You might need a lawyer or computer coder or English teacher.

The Devil is in the Details.


44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

No one can come to Jesus UNLESS the Father draws him, TRUE.

ALL who the Father DRAW come to Jesus, FALSE.



NO one can have a drink at my house unless God gives you a mouth!

So you can't drink at my house unless GOD has given you a mouth, TRUE.

All who God gives a mouth will have a drink at my house, FALSE.


Also people need to keep in mind, AT the Cross and Resurrection, ALL AUTHORITY has been given to Jesus Christ.

John 12
32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

(^there is an added implication it was not being done, hence he "WILL")

So we can see God drawing men, then Jesus drawing men. I don't see a case of the holy spirit drawing men.

Now I expect someone will say when Jesus draws ALL men, it only means elect.

I want to know WHAT exactly would he have to say to mean ALL MEN.

 

[kyredneck]

What do you think these terms mean?

If you search the scriptures you're hard put to separate 'lost' from 'lost sheep'. As in sheep, not goats. Peruse Ezek 34 for a good take on 'lost sheep'.

 

[thatbrian]

If you search the scriptures you're hard put to separate 'lost' from 'lost sheep'. As in sheep, not goats. Peruse Ezek 34 for a good take on 'lost sheep'.

Okay. I'll buy that, so what's your point?

 

[kyredneck]

If you search the scriptures you're hard put to separate 'lost' from 'lost sheep'. As in sheep, not goats. Peruse Ezek 34 for a good take on 'lost sheep'.

Okay. I'll buy that

So, did you peruse Ezek 34 to get a BIBLICAL sense of the term 'lost sheep'?

so what's your point?

A couple points actually. I'll paraphrase you from post #27:

Amen. Lost sheep [The hell bound] - rebellious usurpers - men who are a god unto themselves - do not seek God.

If you took the time to peruse Ezek 34, do you agree with this paraphrase?:

24 But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep [the hell bound] of the house of Israel. Mt 15

The other point is the question if you're a sincere student of the word (if you are you would take/make the time to peruse Ezek 34 on this issue which should cause you to reconsider), or just parroting from the Calvinist playbook. THE MAJORITY [hoi polloi] (both free willers and Calvinists) of evangelical Christendom today glibly accepts that the Bible says, and means, that 'the lost' are 'hell bound', and that 'saved' means 'saved from hell'. As a serious sincere student of the word, can you prove this from scripture? As a genuine student of the word have you ever 'thought outside of the box' about this?

Or are you content with the 'status quo'?