Would this be a fair statement?

[HankD]

Hank, I was taught a similar stance in seminary, but as I matured and studied more I came to believe the "tension" is due to man's fallen nature. His eqo demands that he have some part in his own salvation. He hates the idea that his eternal destiny is beyond his control. It is natural for man, even redeemed man, to want to be the master of his own destiny.

Once we understand the true horror of our sin, and the true Holiness of God, and come to understand what Paul meant when he said in Romans 7:18 "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwells no good thing" then, and only then, can we finally get a grip on what our salvation really is. All of Grace. None of ourselves.

Agreed that it is not of myself and in fact I resisted and kicked against the goads.
However, I personally did the "tap out" and He respected it and gave me immediate release of my anguish.

I presently have no problem whatsoever with Jesus being in complete control of everything in the life He has given me.
It gives me joy and comfort.

HankD

 

[Yeshua1]

That Calvinism teaches that before any humans were born, God picked out which of us would spend eternity with Him and which ones would end up in eternal conscious torment?

No, Calvinism states and holds that all humans are sinners and all of us deserve hell, but that God choose to save some out to be His own people, and allows the rest to have their own will and stay lost.

 

[Felipe Rios]

That Calvinism teaches that before any humans were born, God picked out which of us would spend eternity with Him and which ones would end up in eternal conscious torment?

The scriptures teach that. The difference is that Calvinists teach that God chose his people without any conditions, meaning God's people were not chosen based on them choosing Him. This mean people do not have the free will to choose him.

 

[thatbrian]

The scriptures teach that. The difference is that Calvinists teach that God chose his people without any conditions, meaning God's people were not chosen based on them choosing Him. This mean people do not have the free will to choose him.

Yes, Jesus loved, sought and saved me, without conditions, and that unconditional love is responded to by His elect. Calvinists do believe that they chose Christ. We just understand the reason we do is that He first chose us. "We love because He first loved us".

 

[Felipe Rios]

Yes, Jesus loved, sought and saved me, without conditions, and that unconditional love is responded to by His elect. Calvinists do believe that they chose Christ. We just understand the reason we do is that He first chose us. "We love because He first loved us".

Yea but Calvinists teach that the reason we choose God is because He makes us alive FIRST before we chose Him. They believe you are saved, born again and given eternal life BEFORE you call on the name of the Lord. They will tell you: How can a dead man rise from the dead unless he is made alive first?
So you are right, salvation is Unconditional from God's part, but it is Conditional from our part.

 

[thatbrian]

Yea but Calvinists teach that the reason we choose God is because He makes us alive FIRST before we chose Him. They believe you are saved, born again and given eternal life BEFORE you call on the name of the Lord. They will tell you: How can a dead man rise from the dead unless he is made alive first?
So you are right, salvation is Unconditional from God's part, but it is Conditional from our part.

The very Word of God makes alive what was dead. "Lazarus, come forth". . .

The call of the gospel makes God's elect alive, and then they happily and willing come to Him. Many people, not all, obviously, hear the outward call - the Good News, but only those for whom the Spirit quickens it, are made new creations. If you don't believe that you are left with something to boast about when trying to explain why you are saved but the guy next to you, who heard the same words, is not.

 

[Felipe Rios]

The very Word of God makes alive what was dead. "Lazarus, come forth". . .

The call of the gospel makes God's elect alive, and then they happily and willing come to Him. Many people, not all, obviously, hear the outward call - the Good News, but only those for whom the Spirit quickens it, are made new creations. If you don't believe that you are left with something to boast about when trying to explain why you are saved but the guy next to you, who heard the same words, is not.

You are assuming I would be left with something to boast about. I'm not a Calvinist and I would never boast of my salvation. I'm saved because He saved me, even though I chose Him.

 

[TCassidy]

I chose Him.

So, you chose Him? Hmmmm.

He chose me.

Is there something to brag about? That you made the right choice and the lost guy did not?

And how does an evil man, given over entirely to evil, make a Godly choice?

 

[thatbrian]

You are assuming I would be left with something to boast about. I'm not a Calvinist and I would never boast of my salvation. I'm saved because He saved me, even though I chose Him.

Again, Jesus differs with that position: "You did not choose me, but I chose you. . ."

May I ask, why is it that you "choose Him", but others did not?

 

[Felipe Rios]

So, you chose Him? Hmmmm.

He chose me.

Is there something to brag about? That you made the right choice and the lost guy did not?

And how does an evil man, given over entirely to evil, make a Godly choice?

He enabled me to choose Him or reject Him. That happen at the point of conviction! That happened to you as well

 

[Felipe Rios]

Again, Jesus differs with that position: "You did not choose me, but I chose you. . ."

May I ask, why is it that you "choose Him", but others did not?

Free will

 

[TCassidy]

He enabled me to choose Him or reject Him.

I call that enablement "regeneration." What do you call it?

That happen at the point of conviction!

Yes, His regeneration/enablement allowed me to see that I was guilty, IE, convicted, found guilty.

That happened to you as well

You don't know what happened to me and to say you do is hubris of the worst sort.

Free will

So, do you deny your will was in bondage to the law of sin and death before you were saved?

 

[Felipe Rios]

I call that enablement "regeneration." What do you call it?

Yes, His regeneration/enablement allowed me to see that I was guilty, IE, convicted, found guilty.

You don't know what happened to me and to say you do is hubris of the worst sort.

So, do you deny your will was in bondage to the law of sin and death before you were saved?

I call that enablement "regeneration." What do you call it?

Yes, His regeneration/enablement allowed me to see that I was guilty, IE, convicted, found guilty.

You don't know what happened to me and to say you do is hubris of the worst sort.

So, do you deny your will was in bondage to the law of sin and death before you were saved?

I do not deny my will was in bondage before salvation. I deny the Calvinistic belief that we do not have a choice BEFORE he saves us.

 

[TCassidy]

I deny the Calvinistic belief that we do not have a choice BEFORE he saves us.

We always have a choice. I don't believe we don't have a choice. I believe the lost man always makes the wrong choice.

 

[Yeshua1]

Free will

Only God has absolute Free Will, correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

I do not deny my will was in bondage before salvation. I deny the Calvinistic belief that we do not have a choice BEFORE he saves us.

We do have a will, but we will always reject Jesus, and stay in darkness.

 

[Iconoclast]

"saved and sure,

Is there any scripture that states God has determined some people are chosen by Him to go to eternal torment? In other words, if anyone ends up suffering for

Nope...not really...there is a few that speak of unsaved wicked persons being appointed;

1pet;
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light

3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;[/QUOTE]

 

[Iconoclast]

Only God has absolute Free Will, correct?

Incorrect.....

 

[saved and sure]

Example:

Next time you are in the fruits and vegetables sections of a grocery, consider why you choose some and reject others.

Did the fruit have any effort in itself to make an appeal?

Did the vegetable have any authority in itself to acquire your attention?

Were you not both the chooser (author) and the purchaser (finisher) of the grocery?

The reason that I would choose one fruit or vegetable over the other is how fresh they looked. Your analogy seems to say that God chooses one person over another based on something special about them. I have posed that question to people who believe in election. Why you?.

 

[Reformed]

Rather than conclude that it is more complicated, is the statement in it's simplicity, true?

What is your answer to your own loaded and leaning question?