Would this be a fair statement?

[HankD]

Is there any scripture that states God has determined some people are chosen by Him to go to eternal torment? In other words, if anyone ends up suffering for eternity it is because God chose him for that.

a case can possibly be made with:

NIV 1 Peter 2
7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone,"
8 and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message-- which is also what they were destined for.

HankD

 

[agedman]

The reason that I would choose one fruit or vegetable over the other is how fresh they looked. Your analogy seems to say that God chooses one person over another based on something special about them. I have posed that question to people who believe in election. Why you?.

What does John 1 say about who God selects as given His empowerment to become His children?

 

[thatbrian]

I have posed that question to people who believe in election. Why you?.

he predestined us2 for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, (Ephesians 1:5)

And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, [11] though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— (Romans 9:10–11ESV)

 

[Revmitchell]

Is there any scripture that states God has determined some people are chosen by Him to go to eternal torment? In other words, if anyone ends up suffering for eternity it is because God chose him for that.

Be careful Romans 9:15 is often taken out of context. It is not about salvation. The context is mercy being shown to Israel even though they had been unfaithful. He intends to still work out His promise to Israel. Much in the same way He did with Abraham even though He and Sara were unfaithful to wait on God and brought a child into the world by ungodly means He still remained faithful and Isaac was the promised heir.

 

[Rob_BW]

"saved and sure,


Nope...not really...there is a few that speak of unsaved wicked persons being appointed;

1pet;
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light

3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

[/QUOTE]
What about the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction in Romans 9:22.

That's the one that I struggle with. Or am I just reading to much into a metaphor.

 

[Reformed]

What about the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction in Romans 9:22.

That's the one that I struggle with. Or am I just reading to much into a metaphor.

Rob,

Consider Paul's entire thought in this passage:

Romans 9:22-24 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

Paul begins by injecting a hypothetical, "What if God". Paul wanted the reader to think and ponder about what he was going to write next. Why would God show patience towards those who would not inherit eternal life ("prepared for destruction")? It is almost as though Paul was saying, "I want you to think about this for a while". But before they became too comfortable in their pondering, Paul provides an emphatic answer when he writes, "And He did so". So, the hypothetical became reality. He has patience on those prepared for destruction for the benefit of those who were prepared for glory. Acts 2:39 states, "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” Those prepared beforehand for glory will play out until the end of this present age.

So what of the elephant in the room? What does Paul mean by the word "prepared"? The word means to be fitted for a purpose. This troublesome passage is more easily understood if we are looking with eternal eyes. That is hard to do when we are living in the now. The good news is that God does not reveal to us who is prepared for what. We do not know those whom God has prepared for wrath or glory. Ergo, we proclaim the Gospel to all, knowing that it is the means God has chosen for salvation. We proclaim it as though all can believe. We place no qualification on its scope in bringing sinners to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

 

[Iconoclast]

"Rob_BW,

What about the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction in Romans 9:22.

That's the one that I struggle with. Or am I just reading to much into a metaphor.

I think this section from 2 tim 2 helps along this line....

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.



Reformed has given a helpful response.I also see here the context of Pharoah...His own heart being hardened by his own sin and rebellion, before being judicially hardened by God...The idea being vessels of wrath having fitted themselves for destruction.

Our sin and rebellion against the true and living God is enough that all humanity is a condemned lump of clay....That God has mercy on this sinful lump of clay and is longsuffering with the wicked is true love to the objects of His mercy.

I used to disagree with Leighton Flowers here, who would blame God for mans sin, and it looks as if he has gone full speed ahead objecting in vain about God's decreee.
Rob...we see the verses revealed...but at some point we have to bow before God in His perfectly Holy ,Just, wise attributes, and trust that he is going to save the most persons he can WISELY, ,AND JUSTLY SAVE ,CONSISTENT WITH HIS PERFECT HOLINESS.

 

[thatbrian]

What about the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction in Romans 9:22.

That's the one that I struggle with. Or am I just reading to much into a metaphor.

Reformed has given a helpful response.I also see here the context of Pharoah...His own heart being hardened by his own sin and rebellion, before being judicially hardened by God...The idea being vessels of wrath having fitted themselves for destruction.

Our sin and rebellion against the true and living God is enough that all humanity is a condemned lump of clay....That God has mercy on this sinful lump of clay and is longsuffering with the wicked is true love to the objects of His mercy.

I used to disagree with Leighton Flowers here, who would blame God for mans sin, and it looks as if he has gone full speed ahead objecting in vain about God's decreee.
Rob...we see the verses revealed...but at some point we have to bow before God in His perfectly Holy ,Just, wise attributes, and trust that he is going to save the most persons he can WISELY, ,AND JUSTLY SAVE ,CONSISTENT WITH HIS PERFECT HOLINESS.[/QUOTE]

Our starting point is that God is just. He would be just if He condemned all of mankind; although, we don't like or accept that idea very easily.

 

[Iconoclast]

Rob...I edited in 2tim2 to post 47

 

[Rob_BW]

Rob...I edited in 2tim2 to post 47

Ok, I undid my rating and re-liked it.

 

[agedman]

“Our starting point is that God is just. He would be just if He condemned all of mankind; although, we don't like or accept that idea very easily.”​

Yes, thanks for the video.

I like the way Sproul is both displaying a bit of disgust/anger yet appeals in sincerity to the people.

 

[agedman]

In my opinion, the typical believer of the West has a poor relationship with the virtue and holiness of God.

An interesting relationship is revealed in the little parable of the rebellious son. The son had the attitude of servant, and the father’s was of embracing him as a son.

Too often the believer comes boldly (as did the son) but not in respectful earnest self-deprecating humility that allows the Father to throw His arms around the son in embrace and reaffirming the son as His.

 

[Iconoclast]

Ok, I undid my rating and re-liked it.

Lol.....Think of Isa6......when he sees the glorified Christ on the throne...he is undone....in Rev.1 John falls as a dead man seeing the Lord in glory....and this after he was eyewitness to the resurrection and ascention

 

[thatbrian]

In my opinion, the typical believer of the West has a poor relationship with the virtue and holiness of God.

An interesting relationship is revealed in the little parable of the rebellious son. The son had the attitude of servant, and the father’s was of embracing him as a son.

Too often the believer comes boldly (as did the son) but not in respectful earnest self-deprecating humility that allows the Father to throw His arms around the son in embrace and reaffirming the son as His.

The pendulum has swung much too far in the immanence direction. We exaggerate one side of the equation to the exclusion of the other. God used to be a distant and angry judge, now Jesus is our "homeboy". The truth is, He is both transcendent and imminent. He is as approachable as a loving Father, yet a dangerous consuming fire.

We must not become so familiar that we become irreverent.

 

[agedman]

The pendulum has swung much too far in the immanence direction. God used to be a distant and angry judge, now Jesus is our "homeboy". The truth is, He is both transcendent and imminent. He is an approachable as a loving Father, yet a dangerous consuming fire.

We must not become so familiar that we become irreverent.

The modern church presents a God that has no teeth. That judgment does not occur in the believer and permanently scar and mar from original usefulness.

The Romans presents "there is no condemnation" but it does not present as there being no judgment and hindrance of the work of the Holy Spirit in the prayer life as a result of a lack of presenting to Him a life of living sacrifice, holy, acceptable, what He considers that which is reasonable service. (Romans 12:1)

 

[kyredneck]

The very Word of God makes alive what was dead. "Lazarus, come forth". . .

Allegorizing/spiritualizing is frowned upon here.

The call of the gospel makes God's elect alive

Wrong. The gospel does NOT impart life and immortality. It tells of it:

10 but hath now been manifested by the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 2 Tim 1

Jesus Christ is the life giving Spirit [1 Corinthians 15:45]. The gospel is sheep food that tells us all about Him and makes our hearts to soar like eagles. [ Nehemiah 8:10 ]

 

[thatbrian]

The gospel is sheep food that tells us all about Him and makes our hearts to soar like eagles.

Allegorizing/spiritualizing is frowned upon here.

 

[Rob_BW]

Lol.....Think of Isa6......when he sees the glorified Christ on the throne...he is undone....in Rev.1 John falls as a dead man seeing the Lord in glory....and this after he was eyewitness to the resurrection and ascention

Maybe I should have framed my struggle better.

I have no complaint about the God being just in these passages. I have trouble reading them in light of the refutation of double predestination. It looks like "double or nothing," to me. Of course, I do not doubt the sincerity or logical abilities of those who see it differently.

 

[agedman]

Allegorizing/spiritualizing is frowned upon here.

Not completely frowned upon, but there are those that look to abundant allegorizing /spiritualizing as a support for a scheme in which the Scriptures when taken a factual would not allow.

What is troubling (to me) is that when shown that the Scriptures CAN be taken in a more factual manner, the extensive attempts to discredit such is done by those who desire to only see through allegorical/ spiritual lenses.

Does it not seem logical to take of the Scriptures that which can be factual, and then trust that just as the prophecies concerning the first advent were factual, the rest is also factual?

Why allegorize / spritualize when such does not conform either to historical events of the past, nor the presentation of faithfulness of the prophets in the past?

 

[agedman]

Maybe I should have framed my struggle better.

I have no complaint about the God being just in these passages. I have trouble reading them in light of the refutation of double predestination. It looks like "double or nothing," to me. Of course, I do not doubt the sincerity or logical abilities of those who see it differently.

If ALL are condemned already, how is it "double or nothing" that God has elected from the fallen those whom He purposes to redeem?