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Did the RCC actually give to us the Sacred Scriptures?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
In order to claim to be the one true Church, they would have to defend them giving to us the scriptures though, correct?
The Church of Rome, in order to eb able to calim they alone knows what the scriptures really teach to us, would need to show that they gave to us the Bible, so they alone can reveal it to us...
37818
Well-Known Member
The body of Christ, the church made up of those who actually know God has its foundation built upon the Apostles and the church prophets (Ephesians 2:20-22; Romans 8:9,16) Christ being the corner stone, gave us the New Covenant Holy Scriptures. This Christian New Testament, as we call it, is the sole Apostolic authority in all matters of faith and practice (2 Timothy 3:16-17)..
No
The Roman Catholic religion did not even exist until the 6th century (though several of its heresies existed). Therefore it could not have given us the Bible. That is when Pope Gregory introduced many Catholic doctrines, essentially founding the Catholic religion, according to many scholars:
He introduced the custom of “penance,” performing “meritorious works” to punish one’s self and obtain forgiveness of sins. These works included almsgiving, ascetic practices, etc.
He emphasized the veneration and intercession of the saints, though such beliefs already existed in some churches.
"Gregory encouraged the collection and veneration of holy remains of the saints and martyrs: locks of hair, fingernails, toes, pieces of clothing.” (Bruce L. Shelley, Church History in Plain Language, 4th ed., 177)
Gregory taught the false doctrine of purgatory.
Gregory taught the false doctrine of transubstantiation.
He introduced the custom of “penance,” performing “meritorious works” to punish one’s self and obtain forgiveness of sins. These works included almsgiving, ascetic practices, etc.
He emphasized the veneration and intercession of the saints, though such beliefs already existed in some churches.
"Gregory encouraged the collection and veneration of holy remains of the saints and martyrs: locks of hair, fingernails, toes, pieces of clothing.” (Bruce L. Shelley, Church History in Plain Language, 4th ed., 177)
Gregory taught the false doctrine of purgatory.
Gregory taught the false doctrine of transubstantiation.
I think we can consider RCC started to exist after Cornelius became the leader of the apostate Christians after the death of Fabian in January 250 AD, after the death of Emperor Decius in July 251. Cornelius gathered the apostate Christians who surrendered themselves to and worshipped Emperor Decius. Novatian started to have a separate meetings by gathering the Christians who refused the Emperor Worship and by re-baptizing the Christians who repented from their Emperor Worship.
So, I classify the starting point of the Roman Catholic as 251 AD as there was the deviation and split between Cornelius and Novatian
At that time the Throne of the Satan was in Rome moved from Pergamos ( Rev 2:12-13) and the Title of Pontiff Maximus was handed from Attalus to Julius Caesar in 74 BC ( Though Attalus died in 133 BC in Pergamos but the title was carried by Etruscans to Northern Italy and Etruscans formed the Toscany Culture today). As Jesus pointed out the Throne of Satan ( Rev 2:13) the Center of Human Religion and the Persecution against Christians was originated from Babylon, then moved to Pergamos, then to Rome.
Later the Pontiff Maximus Title was handed over from Emperor Gratian to Bishop of Rome Damasus II in 378 AD. Then the Center of Persecution against Christians and of all the fabrication of Lies became Roman Pope and Vatican.
Now we notice most of the New Testament Books are mentioned by Polycarp's epistle to Philippians
The Development of the Canon of the New Testament - Polycarp
Also, some NT books are mentioned by Ignatius who martyred in 107AD.
We hear that the oldest Latin Bible existed in Alps region in 153AD
So, I believe the Bible Canon was fixed right after Apostle John finished Gospel John and Revelation by 110AD.
So the completed Bible existed before RCC started to exist though RCC claims that the first Pope of RCC was Apostle Peter and the second Pope was Linus ( 2 Tim 4:21)
Therefore Christians owe nothing to RCC concerning the Bible Canonization.
Eliyahu
So, I classify the starting point of the Roman Catholic as 251 AD as there was the deviation and split between Cornelius and Novatian
At that time the Throne of the Satan was in Rome moved from Pergamos ( Rev 2:12-13) and the Title of Pontiff Maximus was handed from Attalus to Julius Caesar in 74 BC ( Though Attalus died in 133 BC in Pergamos but the title was carried by Etruscans to Northern Italy and Etruscans formed the Toscany Culture today). As Jesus pointed out the Throne of Satan ( Rev 2:13) the Center of Human Religion and the Persecution against Christians was originated from Babylon, then moved to Pergamos, then to Rome.
Later the Pontiff Maximus Title was handed over from Emperor Gratian to Bishop of Rome Damasus II in 378 AD. Then the Center of Persecution against Christians and of all the fabrication of Lies became Roman Pope and Vatican.
Now we notice most of the New Testament Books are mentioned by Polycarp's epistle to Philippians
The Development of the Canon of the New Testament - Polycarp
Also, some NT books are mentioned by Ignatius who martyred in 107AD.
We hear that the oldest Latin Bible existed in Alps region in 153AD
So, I believe the Bible Canon was fixed right after Apostle John finished Gospel John and Revelation by 110AD.
So the completed Bible existed before RCC started to exist though RCC claims that the first Pope of RCC was Apostle Peter and the second Pope was Linus ( 2 Tim 4:21)
Therefore Christians owe nothing to RCC concerning the Bible Canonization.
Eliyahu
It is. Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
I thought that it was as the Great Whore?
OK the hierarchy sure do come to mind
Revelation 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Sorry to say you are wrong for so many reasons. (1) The denominational structure was not in place. (2) No one was being called "Pope." (3) There were so many Catholic doctrines and practices not in place: confession, the priesthood, etc. etc. (See my previous post.
If it doesn't meow, has a good attitude, goes around with its tongue out all of the time, it's a dog, not a cat.
Hi John,
Thank you for the comments.
Indeed, many doctrines were added to RCC later on. They couldn't initiate many funny doctrines from the beginning altogether.
For example, Prayer to Mary was added only from 1050 AD officially though there may have been such prayer even after Marcionism in 2c. Then should we say that RCC started only after 1050 AD?
Celibacy was added to RCC doctrines since 1139 AD ( When Did the Catholic Church Decide Priests Should Be Celibate?)
The Bishop of Rome started from Cornelius and he was actually the start of the Papacy.
If you carefully watched the process of electing a new Pope at the College of Cardinals, they emphasize the titles of Pope, which are, Bishop of Rome, Pontiff Maximus, Vicar of Jesus Christ, Arch-bishop of Metropolitan Rome, Sovereign of State of Vatican City.... . That Bishop of Rome started from 251 AD by Cornelius and RCC call him as the 21st Pope. Even if many factors of RCC were not found at that time,we can clearly say that RCC departed from Christianity since that time, not that Christianity departed from RCC as RCC was deviated from the Christian truth and faith.
The importance is that RCC has got the secular power by having the Pontiff Maximus Title to the Pope since 378 AD, then it became the Centre of the Persecution against Christians. We must pay attention to how Lord Jesus analyzes the Enemy as He mentions the Throne of the Satan located in Pergamo in Rev 2:13 and that Throne moved to Italy and to Julius Caesar, down the Emperor Gratian, then to Bishop of Rome, Damasus II in 378 AD. Then the Bishop of Rome has become the Centre of Persecution against Christians. Before that, Roman Emperors were the Centre of Persecution against Christians.
If anyone has a chance to travel to Berlin, Germany, it will be extremely worthwhile to see Pergamon Museum there after reading Revelation 2:13.
RCC is nothing but the extension and the centre of Babylonian Religion which is now aiming at the Move of the Head Quarters from Vatican to Jerusalem and they already agreed to get the Temple Mount from Palestinians free of charge since June 26, 2015.
Vatican Formally Recognizes Palestinian State by Signing Treaty
But the Lord Yeshuah will win the final Victory for His Believers!
God Bless
Eliyahu
Thank you for the comments.
Indeed, many doctrines were added to RCC later on. They couldn't initiate many funny doctrines from the beginning altogether.
For example, Prayer to Mary was added only from 1050 AD officially though there may have been such prayer even after Marcionism in 2c. Then should we say that RCC started only after 1050 AD?
Celibacy was added to RCC doctrines since 1139 AD ( When Did the Catholic Church Decide Priests Should Be Celibate?)
The Bishop of Rome started from Cornelius and he was actually the start of the Papacy.
If you carefully watched the process of electing a new Pope at the College of Cardinals, they emphasize the titles of Pope, which are, Bishop of Rome, Pontiff Maximus, Vicar of Jesus Christ, Arch-bishop of Metropolitan Rome, Sovereign of State of Vatican City.... . That Bishop of Rome started from 251 AD by Cornelius and RCC call him as the 21st Pope. Even if many factors of RCC were not found at that time,we can clearly say that RCC departed from Christianity since that time, not that Christianity departed from RCC as RCC was deviated from the Christian truth and faith.
The importance is that RCC has got the secular power by having the Pontiff Maximus Title to the Pope since 378 AD, then it became the Centre of the Persecution against Christians. We must pay attention to how Lord Jesus analyzes the Enemy as He mentions the Throne of the Satan located in Pergamo in Rev 2:13 and that Throne moved to Italy and to Julius Caesar, down the Emperor Gratian, then to Bishop of Rome, Damasus II in 378 AD. Then the Bishop of Rome has become the Centre of Persecution against Christians. Before that, Roman Emperors were the Centre of Persecution against Christians.
If anyone has a chance to travel to Berlin, Germany, it will be extremely worthwhile to see Pergamon Museum there after reading Revelation 2:13.
RCC is nothing but the extension and the centre of Babylonian Religion which is now aiming at the Move of the Head Quarters from Vatican to Jerusalem and they already agreed to get the Temple Mount from Palestinians free of charge since June 26, 2015.
Vatican Formally Recognizes Palestinian State by Signing Treaty
But the Lord Yeshuah will win the final Victory for His Believers!
God Bless
Eliyahu
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What the Catholics consider their Church as being was not in the scriptures, as that Church was NOT the one in Acts , as the RCC came into existence when they had their first Pope and had their bad theology implemented!
As for the OP's question, RCC started only after 251AD.
Polycarp's letters to Philippians were written around 110-140AD
and Ignatius letters mention about the list of the new testament except Revelation and Ignatius died
in 107.
The Development of the Canon of the New Testament - Polycarp
The Development of the Canon of the New Testament - Ignatius
Therefore the New Testament was finalized by the time of death of Apostle John before 110AD, before RCC was formed.
As for the OT, I think the testimony by Josephus is enough and Apocrypha should be excluded.
Therefore Christians owe nothing to RCC for the Bible Canon.
Eliyahu
Polycarp's letters to Philippians were written around 110-140AD
and Ignatius letters mention about the list of the new testament except Revelation and Ignatius died
in 107.
The Development of the Canon of the New Testament - Polycarp
The Development of the Canon of the New Testament - Ignatius
Therefore the New Testament was finalized by the time of death of Apostle John before 110AD, before RCC was formed.
As for the OT, I think the testimony by Josephus is enough and Apocrypha should be excluded.
Therefore Christians owe nothing to RCC for the Bible Canon.
Eliyahu
Give credit where it is due.
God did use the RCC to protect/preserve His word during the "Dark Age".
The time when the Church of Rome was in its darkness regarding theology?