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Am I Calvinist or Arminian?

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Particular

Particular

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InTheLight said:
Calvinists believe you only have free will once you've been saved. Once you've been saved you can choose to do good works pleasing to God. Before you're saved you only can choose to do bad things.

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Nope, that's not it at all.

Calvinists believe that no one has the capacity to choose God. One person used the analogy of major league baseball. You may want to be a major league baseball player, but the only way you become one is when a major league baseball team chooses to make you a player. You have no capacity to choose what is not yours to choose. So it is with salvation. We humans are not given the capacity to choose to become a child of the King. The King makes that choice. The King chooses whom he will adopt. You are not given the right or capacity to make that choice. Therefore, your will is not free to choose what is not given to you to choose.
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

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Reynolds said:
Not involving salvation.
Unconditional election and irresistable grace leave no free choice in salvation.
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Again, this is not true. We are free to choose what we WANT/DESIRE. This is true with an unconditional election and irresistible grace.
 
Reynolds

Reynolds

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davidtaylorjr said:
I don't think that we do, at least not from the insanity I have seen posted by some of the free-will theology crowd on this forum.
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They are not Arminians. I dont know what they are. Total depravity is the same in Calvinism and Arminianism.
 
Reynolds

Reynolds

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davidtaylorjr said:
Again, this is not true. We are free to choose what we WANT/DESIRE. This is true with an unconditional election and irresistible grace.
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Word games David. I will put my Calvinist hat on. God chose me. The calling is unconditional. The calling is irresistable. I dont choose God, He chooses me. Where is the "free will" there?
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

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Reynolds said:
Word games David. I will put my Calvinist hat on. God chose me. The calling is unconditional. The calling is irresistable. I dont choose God, He chooses me. Where is the "free will" there?
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It's not word games. But you also need to define what you mean when you say free-will. Do you have the humanist view that we can choose anything at all even if it is against our nature and desire?
 
Reynolds

Reynolds

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davidtaylorjr said:
If that were true, and I don't think the two camps mean the same thing, the Arminian camp would see nobody get saved.
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They are in total agreement on depravity. As Tom Cassidy pointed out to me, when you boil away all the word games and meaningless terms, the only real difference in true Classical Arminianism and Calvinism is point "i". There is really very little difference on point L when the same term definitions are adhered to.
 
Reynolds

Reynolds

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davidtaylorjr said:
It's not word games. But you also need to define what you mean when you say free-will. Do you have the humanist view that we can choose anything at all even if it is against our nature and desire?
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I was explicit this entire conversation that I was talking specifically in regard to salvation.
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

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Reynolds said:
Where is your "free will" in regard to salvation? God chose you. What are you free to choose?
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Again, you are free to choose what you want. In our natural state we do not want righteousness, we do not want God, but if we are chosen, the spirit activates our faith and our desire is turned towards God so that our desire is God and we freely choose what we desire. Our eyes are opened.
 
Reynolds

Reynolds

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davidtaylorjr said:
Again, you are free to choose what you want. In our natural state we do not want righteousness, we do not want God, but if we are chosen, the spirit activates our faith and our desire is turned towards God so that our desire is God and we freely choose what we desire. Our eyes are opened.
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Again, a word game. There is no free choice. A decision is made by Sovereign God. He decides Choice A. His election to choice A is unconditional. His force drawing you to A is irresistable. There is no choice B or C allowed. You really contend you made a choice of your free will?
High Calvinists call the concept of free will, as it pertains to salvation, just what all Calvinists should call it if they quit playng word games; folly and non-existent.

A hyper Cal would say there is no free will at all.
 
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