Matthew 23:13

[atpollard]

Those entering were seeking God, yet each and every Calvinist denies this obvious truth. They all claim you can be entering the kingdom without actually seeking God. I kid you not.

... not about Matthew 23:13.

 

[Van]

Here is a Calvinist statement: I am saying those who "are entering" in some translations and "seeking to enter" in other translations are seeking God. Therefore the "T" of the TULIP is false doctrine. Since they did not complete the entry, they we not saved, and therefore lost, unregenerate, and having "total spiritual inability." They could not have been under the influence of irresistible grace because they were not allowed to go in. And since they were therefore not under the influence of irresistible grace, the "T" of the TULIP is false doctrine.

 

[Dave G]

Are they?
[not a challenge, just a question]

[NKJV*] "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in [yourselves], nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

How do you balance the "tug of war" between:

• "those who are entering" = are entering
• "you shut up the kingdom" & "nor do you allow" = 'they' do not ALLOW others to go in.

How can they both "ENTER" and "NOT GO IN" at the same time?

[There was some criticism of several translations for changing "are entering" to "trying to enter" and I wanted to point out that the tension between the two translations is not 'Calvinism', but part of the actual scripture itself.]

* NOTE: I just used NKJV to make it easier for ME to read than Elizabethan English. Feel free to insert KJV for a direct substitution. [KJV] But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

I've gotten used to Elizabethan English, having spent decades learning the differences in the words and their definitions...
So I have very little trouble with it anymore.
As for the "tension" between the translations, to me that is both a matter of manuscripts used and with being more or less faithful in translation technique...
But that's for another section.

As I see it, this one deals with doctrine.



That aside:
Based on how I currently understand the Scriptures, here are my thoughts on Matthew 23:13:

There's only one way for the Pharisees, who were of their father the devil ( John 8:43-47 ) to not "suffer" ( permit ) those that are ( notice it's present tense, not "will go in", future tense, but ARE entering in )...by laying on the children of God burdens that are too hard to keep …
The Law.
A Law that was designed for two purposes, one of which was to act as the schoolmaster for his elect;
and a Law that could only be kept, perfectly, by one Person...Jesus Christ.

Therefore, the Pharisees, by laying on the requirements of the Law, attempted to hinder those who were going in, from doing so.
Since Satan's favorite MO is to hinder, trouble, and even kill God's children wherever he finds them, then it makes perfect sense to me that the Pharisees, whose spiritual "father" was the devil, would act in accordance with the devil's MO.

Since they are the children of disobedience, and we all know what spirit works in the children of disobedience ( Ephesians 2 ), then we can expect them to do what the spirit that works in them, tells them to do.


Make sense?

 

[atpollard]

Therefore the "T" of the TULIP is false doctrine. Since they did not complete the entry, they we not saved, and therefore lost, unregenerate, and having "total spiritual inability." They could not have been under the influence of irresistible grace because they were not allowed to go in. And since they were therefore not under the influence of irresistible grace, the "T" of the TULIP is false doctrine.

Thank you.
It is now clear that you never had any intention of discussing the actual Scripture and what it says.
You merely wish to troll "TULIP" for a response and argue your opinions and claims.

neque intenderent fabulis et genealogiis interminatis quae quaestiones praestant magis quam aedificationem Dei quae est in fide

Finis

 

[Dave G]

Does the verse (Romans 3:10-11) say there are none that EVER seek Him?

No.
To me, it lays a "baseline" from Psalms 10 and Psalms 14...
No man seeks God.

Therefore, if some seek God, we now have a contradiction.
Why do people seek God if God Himself says that no one seeks God, Van?

Nope We are sin, so there are none that seek Him all the time or when sinning.

I'm sorry sir, but your idea of reconciling this is definitely not my idea of doing so.
I see this plainly when I read the Scriptures in their totality:

" The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek [after God]: God [is] not in all his thoughts." ( Psalms 10:4 ).

...which I take literally, and you don't seem to.
That, I believe, is one of our many points of disagreement.

If it will help, I'll lay it out:

The wicked ( as opposed to the righteous ), through the pride of his countenance, will not seek God in all his thoughts.
The righteous do.

How is a man made righteous?
By God ( Romans 8:33 ).

Therefore, I conclude that if any man seeks God, it's because of God making them righteous by the blood of His Son, and by the new birth.

 

[Van]

Thank you.
It is now clear that you never had any intention of discussing the actual Scripture and what it says.
You merely wish to troll "TULIP" for a response and argue your opinions and claims.

neque intenderent fabulis et genealogiis interminatis quae quaestiones praestant magis quam aedificationem Dei quae est in fide

Finis

Deflection once again on display.
Matthew 23:13 discussion:
Therefore the "T" of the TULIP is false doctrine. Since they did not complete the entry, they we not saved, and therefore lost, unregenerate, and having "total spiritual inability." They could not have been under the influence of irresistible grace because they were not allowed to go in. And since they were therefore not under the influence of irresistible grace, the "T" of the TULIP is false doctrine.

As far as the mistranslations found in the NIV, NLT, and ESV, note conflict created with Luke 11:52 in the NIV and ESV.

 

[Van]

No.
To me, it lays a "baseline" from Psalms 10 and Psalms 14...
No man seeks God.

Therefore, if some seek God, we now have a contradiction.
Why do people seek God if God Himself says that no one seeks God, Van?

Please read Psalm 14, verse 5-6! Some sought God's counsel as a refuge. So once again the very passages cited show Calvinism is false.

 

[Dave G]

Please read Psalm 14, verse 5-6!

Sure, Van.
In fact, let's read the entire Psalm:

" The fool hath said in his heart, [There is] no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, [there is] none that doeth good.
2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, [and] seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are [all] together become filthy: [there is] none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord.
5 There were they in great fear: for God [is] in the generation of the righteous.
6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the Lord [is] his refuge.
7 Oh that the salvation of Israel [were come] out of Zion! when the Lord bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, [and] Israel shall be glad." ( Psalms 14:1-7 ).

Here's what I see when I read the passage:

1) The fool has said, in his heart ( not just his mind, but the seat of his affections and desires ), "there is no God".
The Lord here describes the fool, that they are corrupt, they have done abominable ( repulsive ) works, there is none...No one, that does good.
This reminds me of what Paul wrote in Romans 1:18-32.

2) The Lord looked down from Heaven upon the children of men, to see if there was anyone that did understand, and that did seek God.

3) Answer: They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy. There is none that doeth good, no not one.
I'm reminded of Romans 3:10-18.

Question: If there's none that does good, then how are men righteous?
Van, I was taught this as a very young believer in Baptist churches...I'm not, which is why I need a Saviour.

4) The Lord asks the question..."Have all the workers of iniquity ( sinners ) no knowledge, who eat up my people as they eat bread, and do not call upon the Lord?"

5) There were they ( the workers of iniquity from verse 4 ) in great fear.. for God is in the generation of the righteous.

Again, if there are none righteous, as verse 3 clearly states, how then is anyone righteous before God's eyes?
Answer: I'm reminded of Romans 3:21-22, Romans 4:6-8, Romans 5:1-11, 2 Corinthians 5:21, Galatians 3:6-14.

6) The psalmist here states: You have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the Lord is his refuge.
Truly, the Lord is indeed the refuge of the poor, because that is what His word says.

7) Oh that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion ( and it has, in the Person of Jesus Christ )! When the Lord brings back the captivity of His people, Jacob shall rejoice, Israel shall be glad.

 

[Dave G]

Some sought God's counsel as a refuge.

Why, if there is none righteous and none that seek God?

So once again the very passages cited show Calvinism is false.

We're not talking about John Calvin, Van.
We're discussing the Scriptures and what they actually say.

 

[Van]

Sure, Van.
SNIP

Here's what I see when I read the passage:
SNIP

3) Answer: They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy. There is none that doeth good, no not one.
I'm reminded of Romans 3:10-18.

Question: If there's none that does good, then how are men righteous?
Van, I was taught this as a very young believer in Baptist churches...
I'm not, which is why I need a Saviour.

4) The Lord asks the question..."Have all the workers of iniquity ( sinners ) no knowledge, who eat up my people as they eat bread, and do not call upon the Lord?"

5) There were they ( the workers of iniquity from verse 4 ) in great fear.. for God is in the generation of the righteous.

Again, if there are none righteous, as verse 3 clearly states, how then is anyone righteous before God's eyes?
Answer: I'm reminded of Romans 3:21-22, Romans 4:6-8, Romans 5:1-11, 2 Corinthians 5:21, Galatians 3:6-14.

6) The psalmist here states: You have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the Lord is his refuge.
Truly, the Lord is indeed the refuge of the poor, because that is what His word says.

7) Oh that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion ( and it has, in the Person of Jesus Christ )! When the Lord beings back the captivity of His people, Jacob shall rejoice, Israel shall be glad.

3) There are none of those who say there is no God. Thus not a reference to all mankind.

6) Just as I said, some have sought God's counsel as refuge, thus Psalms 14 teaches total spiritual inability is unbiblical.

 

[Van]

Why, if there is none righteous and none that seek God?
We're not talking about John Calvin, Van.
We're discussing the Scriptures and what they actually say.

People can be unrighteous, without the result of total spiritual inability.
People do not seek God all the time, and since we all do sinful acts, we are not seeking God when doing sinful acts. Therefore there are none that seek God all the time or when sinning.
I am not talking about John Calvin, I am talking about Matthew 23:13 and how it clearly teaches both the "T" and the "I" of the TULIP are bogus.

 

[Dave G]

3) There are none of those who say there is no God.

Amen.
Believers say that there is a God.

6) Just as I said, some have sought God's counsel as refuge, thus Psalms 14 teaches total spiritual inability is unbiblical.

Yet again, Van...
How can people who do not seek God, seek Him?

People can be unrighteous, without the result of total spiritual inability.

That wasn't the question, Van.
How are people righteous, if none are righteous as the Psalm says?

People do not seek God all the time, and since we all do sinful acts, we are not seeking God when doing sinful acts.

According to the Psalm, there is none that seeks God.

So, how do people that do not seek God, seek Him when they are not sinning...
Which, according to Scripture, men sin all the time?

There is none that does good...

So, if none do good, then all have sinned and come short of the glory of God ( Romans 3:23 ).
There is none righteous, no, not one ( Romans 3:10-11 ).
Simply being a sinner means that no one is righteous...
So, who isn't a sinner and sinning all the time?

Answer:
Jesus Christ the Son of the living God.

 

[Dave G]

I am not talking about John Calvin, I am talking about Matthew 23:13 and how it clearly teaches both the "T" and the "I" of the TULIP are bogus.

I disagree, Van.

It shows us that there are indeed people that are entering in to the kingdom of God.
Why do people enter in, Van?
Because they are born of the Spirit:

" Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. " ( John 3:5 ).

How can a person who is not born of the spirit, enter into the kingdom of God, Van?
Answer: According to the above, they cannot.
It's not possible.

I'm going to emphasize this again, just so you know I'm not fudging the Scriptures any...
Except a man be born of the Spirit, he cannot enter in to the kingdom of God.
Therefore, if any man enters into the kingdom of God, it's because they are born of the Spirit...a.k.a, "born again" or "born of God".

Next question...
Who are those that are born of the Spirit?

" Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him." ( 1 John 5:1 ).

Again, we're not talking about John Calvin...
We're talking about the word of God.

 

[Dave G]

@Van :

So...we've just run through what makes Matthew 23:13 apply to only those who are born of God.
Because unless one is born of the Spirit, one cannot enter in to the kingdom of God.
We've also seen how man, who will not seek God and is not righteous, can become righteous...

By the blood of Jesus Christ, whose righteousness is imputed to those of us who have believed on Him.
Anyone who truly believes on Christ Jesus, has had that righteousness imputed to them.

They are the ones that are entering in.


The "T" and the "I" are firmly established, because without the new birth, there is none that seeks God, not in all his thoughts.
Since being born again is not by our will, but by God's ( John 1:13 ), then there's the "I" yet again.

It's all by the grace and mercy of God alone ( Titus 3:5-7 ).


May God bless you, sir, and may you always remember His "irresistible" grace towards you,
a sinner that would have never realized his dire need of a Saviour because of our "total depravity" in our willful rebellion towards Him and His goodness.

 

[Van]

Amen.
SNIP
I inserted my response into your quote in RED
How can people who do not seek God, seek Him?
Please indicate you understand that there are none who seek God all the time, but some seek God some of the time.
If this is beyond your comprehension, then there is nothing I can say...
SNIP
How are people righteous, if none are righteous as the Psalm says? Individuals are made righteous when God alone places them spiritually into Christ.
SNIP
According to the Psalm, there is none that seeks God.
Yes there are none that seek God all the time or when sinning, but the people of Matthew 23:13 were seeking God and were not saved or under the influence of irresistible grace because they were prevented from going in to the kingdom.
SNIP
Which, according to Scripture, men sin all the time?
According to scripture people do not sin all the time. Unless entering the kingdom is sinning.
SNIP
There is none that does good...
What about those who give good gifts...
SNIP
.

 

[Van]

I disagree, Van.
.

Yes you are disagreeing with scripture.
You say no one ever seeks God but then you say those of Matthew 23:13 were seeking God.
You imply the people of Matthew 23:13 were under the influence of irresistible grace, ignoring the fact they were prevented from completing entry. Therefore they were seeking God without the influence of irresistible grace. You have ignored this truth.

 

[Van]

@Van :

So...we've just run through what makes Matthew 23:13 apply to only those who are born of God.
SNIP

In order for God to place a person into Christ, He must choose to put them in.
God chooses to put people into Christ on the basis of faith in the truth.
Therefore when a person is coming to faith, they are entering the kingdom.
And that is before, I say again, before, they are placed in Christ and undergo the washing of regeneration, being born anew.

 

[Alan Gross]

Van says he would like to discuss [Matthew 23:13], so here is the verse:

[ASV] But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye enter not in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering in to enter.

[DBY] But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, for ye shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men; for *ye* do not enter, nor do ye suffer those that are entering to go in.

[ESV] “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.

[KJV] But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

[NIV] “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

[NKJV] "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in [yourselves], nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

[NASB] “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven [fn]from [fn]people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

[NLT] “What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces. You won’t go in yourselves, and you don’t let others enter either.

[RSV] "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither enter yourselves, nor allow those who would enter to go in.

[YLT] 'Wo to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye shut up the reign of the heavens before men, for ye do not go in, nor those going in do ye suffer to enter.

So Van, the floor is your’s.
What about Matthew 23:13?

" But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men:

( and prevent some of them from physically entering into the location where The Bible is being Preached, under the Influence of Saved individuals, WHO ARE THE KINGDOM of GOD, where The Spiritual Truths of The Kingdom of God are being Preached, by the Apostles and followers of Jesus, so that they might Understand and Be Saved)

for ye neither go in [yourselves],

(physically entering into the location where The Bible is being Preached, under the Influence of Saved individuals, WHO ARE THE KINGDOM of GOD, where The Spiritual Truths of The Kingdom of God are being Preached, by the Apostles and followers of Jesus, so that you might Understand and Be Saved)

neither suffer ye them that are entering

(and stop permitting and allowing those to place themselves under the ETERNAL WORD of GOD and physically entering into the location where The Bible is being Preached, under the Influence of Saved individuals, WHO ARE THE KINGDOM of GOD, where The Spiritual Truths of The Kingdom of God are being Preached, by the Apostles and followers of Jesus, so that they might Understand and Be Saved)

to go in

(under the Influence of The Kingdom of God that is being Preached, by the Apostles and followers of Jesus, so that they might Understand and Be Saved)" ( Matthew 23:13, KJV ).

 

[Dave G]

In order for God to place a person into Christ, He must choose to put them in.

He did choose to do so...
Before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ).

God chooses to put people into Christ on the basis of faith in the truth.

Scripture says that He chooses to put people into Christ on the basis of His mercy and compassion ( Romans 9:14-18 ).
Scripture also says that faith is a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ), authored and finished by Jesus Christ ( Hebrews 12:2 ), the evidence of His work in us ( Hebrews 11:1 ) and that not all men have it ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ).

Therefore, since not all men have faith ( because it was not given to them as a gift from God ), then those that are entering in have been given the privilege to do so...
Making it all of grace and none of works.

They are the ones who have the wedding garment of Christ's imputed righteousness, while the ones who do not are not invited to the wedding.

Therefore when a person is coming to faith, they are entering the kingdom.

Amen.
The elect, who will come to true faith because it has been given to them to believe in the behalf of Christ ( Philippians 1:29 ), are the ones entering in.

And that is before, I say again, before, they are placed in Christ and undergo the washing of regeneration, being born anew.

Of course you know that I disagree with you, Van.
It's not because of any work of righteousness on our part, but strictly because of His mercy and grace ( Titus 3:4-7 ), given to us in Christ Jesus before the world began ( 2 Timothy 1:9 ).

" Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"

God bases His saving of someone not on our efforts, but strictly upon His own.


This is my last reply to you in this thread, sir.
I wish you well in your continuing studies.

 

[Van]

He did choose to do so...
Before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ).
SNIP

I have already shown no one was chosen individually before creation, because once we were not a people. Had we been chosen individually, we would have always been a chosen people.
Calvinists simply ignore scripture after scripture and repeat their false claims over and over.