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Featured Matthew 23:13

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by atpollard, Sep 23, 2020.

  1. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    I do not know of any evidence that

    1.) "shut up the kingdom of heaven against men":
    2.) "ye neither go in"
    3.) "neither suffer ye them that are entering"

    4.) "to go in"

    are GOD Making ANY Reference to "Salvation"

    and I do not believe any evidence that 1.)- 4.)

    involves GOD Making ANY Reference to "Salvation", exists.
     
  2. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    It must refer to certain aspects of salvation. Salvation entails ones initial salvation, ones experience of salvation, ones complete salvation. Or, justification, sanctification, and glorification. Or, I am saved. I am being saved. I will be saved.

    So, the Jews entering into the Kingdom promised by Christ, must be an aspect of their salvation.

    One thing I have noticed is that none seem to define "the Kingdom of Heaven".

    Quantrill
     
  3. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Bingo!
     
  4. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    It probably is advisable to define what the words mean and can and could mean, rather than just assuming it is jumping off the page.

    I defined and qualified it and remain consistent with the other of The Lord's Teaching, which is also recommended.

    Consideration needs to be given to the difference between the flesh and the Spirit, when 'reading', or even thinking we are reading The Bible.

    re; "there is none (lost) that seeks".

    " But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men:

    ( and prevent some of them from physically entering into the location where The Bible is being Preached, under the Influence of Saved individuals, WHO ARE THE KINGDOM of GOD, where The Spiritual Truths of The Kingdom of God are being Preached, by the Apostles and followers of Jesus, so that they might Understand and Be Saved)

    for ye neither go in [yourselves],

    (physically entering into the location where The Bible is being Preached, under the Influence of Saved individuals, WHO ARE THE KINGDOM of GOD, where The Spiritual Truths of The Kingdom of God are being Preached, by the Apostles and followers of Jesus, so that you might Understand and Be Saved)

    neither suffer ye them that are entering

    (and stop permitting and allowing those to place themselves under the ETERNAL WORD of GOD and physically entering into the location where The Bible is being Preached, under the Influence of Saved individuals, WHO ARE THE KINGDOM of GOD, where The Spiritual Truths of The Kingdom of God are being Preached, by the Apostles and followers of Jesus, so that they might Understand and Be Saved)


    to go in

    (under the Influence of The Kingdom of God that is being Preached, by the Apostles and followers of Jesus, so that they might Understand and Be Saved)" ( Matthew 23:13, KJV ).
     
  5. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    You didn't address anything I said. There are some aspects of salvation being addressed, though you say there is not.

    And, you did nothing to define the 'Kingdom of Heaven'. So, I ask you, what is the 'Kingdom of Heaven'?

    Quantrill
     
  6. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    The presupposition of, "Salvation", is telling.

    You say, "some aspects", as if that is just some given.

    Like, "SALVATION" Jumps! off the Page! and there is nothing you can do to stop it.

    And you didn't look for to see if it actually there, it's just assume,so.....

    ,...so..."Sooome Assspect".... of something is there? How? Guessing.



    ...

    I'll put Gill's comments after mine.

    He is always less fleshly-carnal-heart-deceived-minded and more Spiritual than I, his knowing the difference between the flesh and the Spirit.

    Gill also is more thorough, than I, and Glorifies God more, always.


    " But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men:

    ( and prevent some of them from physically entering into the location where The Bible is being Preached, under the Influence of Saved individuals, WHO ARE THE KINGDOM of GOD, where The Spiritual Truths of The Kingdom of God are being Preached, by the Apostles and followers of Jesus, so that they might Understand and Be Saved)

    Gill:...and His charge against them;

    denouncing a woe upon them in this world, and that which is to come, no less than eight times;

    expressing His abhorrence of their wickedness, his commiseration of their case, and their certain destruction:

    "for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men":

    = not eternal life and happiness, the entrance into which can neither be opened nor shut by men: those whom God determines to bring thither, shall have an entrance abundantly ministered to them, in spite of the opposition of men and devils;

    though these men did all that in them lay, to hinder persons enjoying everlasting glory.

    (The Meaning of "Kingdom of Heaven", as used in this verse:)

    But
    the Gospel dispensation is here meant,

    which opened by
    the ministry of John the Baptist, Christ and His disciples,

    and which
    the Scribes and Pharisees did all they could to shut;

    by discouraging the preaching of the Gospel, and the administration of ordinances, in which
    this dispensation lay;

    and prejudice the minds of men against it, that they might not embrace the doctrines of it, nor submit to its ordinances: they, by their office, ought to have opened and explained the Scriptures, the prophecies of the Old Testament relating to the Messiah, and led the people into a knowledge of
    the mysteries of his kingdom, and encouraged them to enter into this new state of things;

    which, according to the true intent of Scripture, was to take place, and now did: but instead of this,
    they shut up the Scriptures, took away the key of knowledge, and laid it aside;

    and darkened the Scriptures by their false glosses, and obliged the people to observe the traditions of the elders, and which they call (hrwtl gyo) , "an hedge for the law" F23; to which Beza thinks, the allusion is here, and by which men were shut up, and kept from
    the true knowledge both of law and Gospel:


    for ye neither go in [yourselves],

    (physically entering into the location where The Bible is being Preached, under the Influence of Saved individuals, WHO ARE THE KINGDOM of GOD, where The Spiritual Truths of The Kingdom of God are being Preached, by the Apostles and followers of Jesus, so that you might Understand and Be Saved)

    neither suffer ye them that are entering

    (and stop permitting and allowing those to place themselves under the ETERNAL WORD of GOD and physically entering into the location where The Bible is being Preached, under the Influence of Saved individuals, WHO ARE THE KINGDOM of GOD, where The Spiritual Truths of The Kingdom of God are being Preached, by the Apostles and followers of Jesus, so that they might Understand and Be Saved)


    to go in

    (under the Influence of The Kingdom of God that is being Preached, by the Apostles and followers of Jesus, so that they might Understand and Be Saved)"

    Gill:..."they neither believed in the Messiah themselves, nor embraced the doctrines relating to His person and office: have any of the Pharisees believed on him? No;

    they received Him not, they rejected Him, and also the counsel of God, against themselves, not being baptized with the baptism of John, the forerunner of Christ;

    nor would they suffer others, that were inclined to profess their faith in Him, and be baptized, to do it;

    but discouraged them all they could, by their reproachful treatment of the person, miracles, and ministry of Christ, and by their threatenings and menaces, and by their excommunications of such as making a confession of him."


    ( Matthew 23:13, KJV ).


    Why not consent, also, to leave that consideration of "Salvation", out of our heart, and read The Word of God to Gain His Expression of What God Wants Us to UNDERSTAND.



    This an attempt at an extended paraphrase, repeating Gill.


    " But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven
    the Gospel dispensation which opened by the ministry of John the Baptist, Christ and His disciples,

    against men:
    by discouraging the preaching of the Gospel, and the administration of ordinances, in which this dispensation lay;

    and prejudice the minds of men against it, that they might not embrace the doctrines of it, nor submit to its ordinances:

    for ye neither go in [yourselves],

    "they neither believed in the Messiah themselves nor embraced the doctrines relating to His person and office:

    they received Him not, they rejected Him, and also the counsel of God, against themselves, not being baptized with the baptism of John, the forerunner of Christ;

    neither suffer ye them that are
    entering to go in:

    nor would they suffer others, that were inclined to profess their faith in Him, and be baptized, to do it;


    but discouraged them all they could, by their reproachful treatment of the person, miracles, and ministry of Christ, and by their threatenings and menaces, and by their excommunications of such as making a confession of him."





    ( Matthew 23:13, KJV ).
     
    #46 Alan Gross, Oct 1, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2020
  7. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    You still didn't address what I said. And I have no interest in arguing with Gill.

    Quantrill
     
  8. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, who knows what you said(?)

    Probably, something.
     
  9. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Sigh...
    I have read this entire thread. No deflection on atpollard's part at all. Please be truthful rather than dishonest.
     
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  10. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    No. Dave is not disagreeing with scripture. He has graciously presented scripture, with no twist, so that, perchance, you might see the obstacles before you.
     
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  11. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    I highlighted your works-based legalism whereby you teach salvation by merit.
     
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  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another fiction supporting a fiction.
     
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Another Triple F post.
     
  14. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    You must be speaking into a mirror, Van.
    Dave has been very honest and provided untainted scripture.
     
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  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another Triple F post.
     
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