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Featured Matthew 23:13

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by atpollard, Sep 23, 2020.

  1. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Van says he would like to discuss [Matthew 23:13], so here is the verse:

    [ASV] But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye enter not in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering in to enter.

    [DBY] But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, for ye shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men; for *ye* do not enter, nor do ye suffer those that are entering to go in.

    [ESV] “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.

    [KJV] But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

    [NIV] “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

    [NKJV] "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in [yourselves], nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

    [NASB] “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven [fn]from [fn]people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

    [NLT] “What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces. You won’t go in yourselves, and you don’t let others enter either.

    [RSV] "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither enter yourselves, nor allow those who would enter to go in.

    [YLT] 'Wo to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye shut up the reign of the heavens before men, for ye do not go in, nor those going in do ye suffer to enter.

    So Van, the floor is your’s.
    What about Matthew 23:13?
     
  2. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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  3. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    " But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in." ( Matthew 23:13, KJV ).

    See what I highlighted?;)
     
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Those entering were seeking God, yet each and every Calvinist denies this obvious truth. They all claim you can be entering the kingdom without actually seeking God. I kid you not.
     
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  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Note the usual suspects (NIV, NLT and ESV) obliterate "are entering" and alter the text to suggest they were not actually entering. Calvinistic bias on display
     
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  6. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Please note that I did not make use of the other translations, as I much prefer the "KJV" over them.
    Also note that the text does indeed say, "are entering in".

    No "Calvinistic" bias on display.
    The people in Matthew 23:13 are actually entering in.

    May God bless you sir.
     
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  7. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    This "Calvinist" does not deny this obvious truth.
    One must indeed seek God to enter into the kingdom.

    Now, given that Romans 3:10-18 says that there are none that seek Him,
    My question is, "why are these people seeking Him and are obviously entering in?"
     
  8. JD731

    JD731 Active Member

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    These are the same suspects who committed the unpardonable sin earlier in the time line. The question is, how does anyone whose sins are not pardonable from before the foundation of the world commit a sin that is unpardonable? All have sinned, we are told. Un-elect cannot be saved, we are told.

    Are we dealing with a group who are more interested in defending a position than submitting to the truth that has reason and logic? It sure looks like it to me.
     
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  9. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Respectfully, this conversation will be more productive if you use scripture to tell me what YOU believe and allow me to state my own beliefs. If you are going to tell me what I believe, then that leaves nothing for me except to tell you what you believe and that is not a conversation ... that is mind reading.
     
  10. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Are they?
    [not a challenge, just a question]

    [NKJV*] "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in [yourselves], nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

    How do you balance the "tug of war" between:
    • "those who are entering" = are entering
    • "you shut up the kingdom" & "nor do you allow" = 'they' do not ALLOW others to go in.
    How can they both "ENTER" and "NOT GO IN" at the same time?

    [There was some criticism of several translations for changing "are entering" to "trying to enter" and I wanted to point out that the tension between the two translations is not 'Calvinism', but part of the actual scripture itself.]

    * NOTE: I just used NKJV to make it easier for ME to read than Elizabethan English. Feel free to insert KJV for a direct substitution. [KJV] But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
     
  11. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Unfortunately the topic (Matthew 23:13) has nothing to do with the "unpardonable sin".
    Have you considered Blogging as a hobby?
     
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  12. JD731

    JD731 Active Member

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    Sorry to offend you atpollard. I could not help reading the very harsh language of our Lord toward these people. He had said to them earlier that had Sodom and Gomorrah had the same revelation they had that they would have repented in sack cloth and ashes. He would know, but without prior election would repentance have done them any good? I am just trying to apply some logic and reason to the Calvinist religion. Calvinism teaches determinism and men can’t change course but our Lord seems to hold men personally responsible for the choices they make.

    Why would God be upset with these people for doing what they were predetermined to do? It seems he would be upset if they did not. ......but could they not if it was determined. I think these are good questions obout 23:13, don’t you?
     
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  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The comment did not address you, but three bible translations.
     
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Does the verse (Romans 3:10-11) say there are none that EVER seek Him? Nope We are sin, so there are none that seek Him all the time or when sinning.
     
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Will all due respect, are you saying the folks of Matthew 23:13 were indeed seeking God, thus proving the "T" of the TULI is false doctrine. Somehow I doubt it. :)

    Here again is my statement: Those entering were seeking God, yet each and every Calvinist denies this obvious truth. They all claim you can be entering the kingdom without actually seeking God. I kid you not.
     
    #15 Van, Sep 24, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2020
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Calvinists like myself, see this as the elect entering into the Kingdom now

    Van, all of those who exercised their full free will are doing that now!
     
  17. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    I am not offended.

    Do you really believe that Matthew 23:13 is a verse about Predestination? Then I will take you at your word. Start with the actual words in Matthew 23:13 and explain what you think they say about predestination. Then I will have something specific to respond to on Matthew 23:13.
     
  18. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    You claimed you wanted to dialog with me about Matthew 23:13 and hoped that I was willing to speak honestly and not avoid it.
    I created the topic, posted the verse in as many translations as I could easily locate, and invited you to start by saying something about Matthew 23:13.

    You have told me what I believe.
    You have asked me about the "T" in TULIP.
    You have repeated a statement about what every Calvinist believes.

    How can we talk about Matthew 23:13 if you refuse to explain to me what Matthew 23:13 means to you?
     
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  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Deflection on display.

    Those entering were seeking God, yet each and every Calvinist denies this obvious truth. They all claim you can be entering the kingdom without actually seeking God. I kid you not.
     
  20. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    I am saying those who "are entering" in some translations and "seeking to enter" in other translations are seeking God.
    I would claim that the Scribes, Pharisees and hypocrites that do not enter themselves are NOT seeking God.

    I would argue that it proves no such thing since they could also have been (I) of TULIP to overcome their (T) of TULIP.

    You are right to do so.

    Statements are all well and good, but if you actually discussed what you believed and how you interpret the actual words of scripture, it would provide an opportunity for me to offer how I interpret those same words and we could understand one another better.

    I agree. It does not answer why they were seeking God. Were they drawn by the Holy Spirit? Were they convinced by the words of scripture? Were they changed by an encounter with the WORD made flesh? The verse is silent on "why". However we can agree that their face was set in the direction of TOWARDS God.

    Dave and I have not denied it, so either we are not "Calvinists" or 'ALMOST' every Calvinist denies it or you mean some slightly different obvious truth than "those entering were seeking God".

    I suspect that there is some miscommunication, some splitting of hairs, and some honest disagreement about the exact definition of "entering the kingdom" and "seeking God". I can say for certain that no one "in the kingdom" is being held against their will. I can also say that it is my opinion that most sinners are quite content to live each day without giving God a passing thought. So the kingdom of God is not full of unwilling saints that were dragged kicking and screaming the whole way. The World is not full of sinners all desperately striving to claw their way to God, lost in the dark and hoping that you will point out the path for them.

    I believe you.
     
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