Altar Calls and Sinners Prayer

[Iconoclast]

Altar= sacrifice
In the RC church....they think the are offering the non bloody sacrifice of the eucharist.

Neh.8:4= pulpit of wood for proclamation.

 

[JonC]

Hello Salty

Things can be man made and useful.

I will even say that I am hopeful and confident that God can even use error and cults to draw His people.
Someone starts out in a cult....but from reading scripture as a. Ultimately member the Spirit does the unseen work resulting in a turning from the cult to a biblical assembly.
Now that does not mean I am going to build mormon churches in the neighborhood hoping it will work.

Telling people to do something physical in front of other people does not make it happen...or make it certain.

I wonder how many things some may use for good others may abuse in idolatry (perhaps unintended).

I absolutely agree that the use of a "sinners prayer" to bring about or make certain salvation is wrong. I have been in churches that used a "sinners prayer", but never in such a way you describe. BUT I have spoken to others who have experienced that very thing.

I have been in church long enough to see some hymns become types of idols (I actually miss the Doxology).

And orders of service have become man-made systems of worship (again, I kinda miss the programs with songs to be sung...but that is certainly something that has been abused by many).

Sometimes it takes an "outsider" to call attention to things, but I guess these issues always have to be defined by the insider (the one using the "sinners prayer" or "altar call". My church uses neither.

 

[Iconoclast]

I wonder how many things some may use for good others may abuse in idolatry (perhaps unintended).

I absolutely agree that the use of a "sinners prayer" to bring about or make certain salvation is wrong. I have been in churches that used a "sinners prayer", but never in such a way you describe. BUT I have spoken to others who have experienced that very thing.

I have been in church long enough to see some hymns become types of idols (I actually miss the Doxology).

And orders of service have become man-made systems of worship (again, I kinda miss the programs with songs to be sung...but that is certainly something that has been abused by many).

Sometimes it takes an "outsider" to call attention to things, but I guess these issues always have to be defined by the insider (the one using the "sinners prayer" or "altar call". My church uses neither.

Again...those using such things are sincere.
If I wander into such a. Church I pray that God will use the preaching of the cross and the love of the people to encourage people to keep coming under the sound of the word.

 

[JonC]

Again...those using such things are sincere.
If I wander into such a. Church I pray that God will use the preaching of the cross and the love of the people to encourage people to keep coming under the sound of the word.

People can be sincerely right or sincerely wrong.

Like I said, I have witnessed pastors urging men to be reconciled to God (biblically, not manipulation) but I have heard of other preachers engaging in manipulation.

I personally think this will be born out in the church and how faithful that church remains.

IF in the past churches were not so caught up in business models and looking to increase numbers rather than create disciples then perhaps so many "churches" today would not be so disobedient and worldly.

In other words, many of today's churches are products of people decades ago trying to do kingdom work in worldly ways.

 

[Revmitchell]

The misuse of the sinners prayer gets exaggerated by those who do not agree with it no matter how its used.

The alter which is in the vast majority of baptist churches is a place of prayer, decision, and sacrifice. Sacrifice as in a decision to be more dedicated to God and or to repent when needed.

If you dont like it dont do it. All the hyper exaggerated criticism is childish.

 

[Iconoclast]

People can be sincerely right or sincerely wrong.

Like I said, I have witnessed pastors urging men to be reconciled to God (biblically, not manipulation) but I have heard of other preachers engaging in manipulation.

I personally think this will be born out in the church and how faithful that church remains.

IF in the past churches were not so caught up in business models and looking to increase numbers rather than create disciples then perhaps so many "churches" today would not be so disobedient and worldly.

What is even more disturbing is the to rededicate yourself once again.
Repeating the same fleshly thing 4 ,5, 6 times

 

[JonC]

What is even more disturbing is the to rededicate yourself once again.
Repeating the same fleshly thing 4 ,5, 6 times

I do not understand re-dedications or re-baptisms (if baptized initially as a believer). I do see the room for repentance when backsliding (if that is what people mean by re-dedication).

My wife mentioned renewing our vows. I told her the first ones did not have an expiration date.

I guess that is how I see our journey with Christ. We live a life of bearing our crosses and of repentance. But if once an heir, always an heir. It is God who keeps us.

That is just my thoughts. I would never dissuade someone from following a convection to re-dedicate themselves or be re-baptized, but I do think re-baptism is often a misunderstanding of baptism.

 

[Iconoclast]

The misuse of the sinners prayer gets exaggerated by those who do not agree with it no matter how its used.

The alter which is in the vast majority of baptist churches is a place of prayer, decision, and sacrifice. Sacrifice as in a decision to be more dedicated to God and or to repent when needed.

If you dont like it dont do it. All the hyper exaggerated criticism is childish.

You speak of it as if it was biblical to start with which it is not.
There is no special place of prayer.
The only altar we have is beyond the veil in heaven.
Jesus is not at the front back or side of the Church.
He is in heaven. The sinner needs to deal direct from wherever he is to the throne.
If you and others would teach correctly to begin with there would be no mess to clean up.
The person who made that false profession and was put on the membership role...then drifted away from church for 29 years and comes back on this other man made nonsense called "homecoming".... comes up front again to rededicate himself!. A bid to do is made and 3 weeks later he is m.i.a.

 

[JonC]

Well, if anyone goes to an altar tomorrow send up a prayer. Fell off a ladder about an hour ago and twisted my back. Just covering all bases

 

[Salty]

I do not understand ... re-baptisms
.

Jon, I fully agree with you on re-baptism.
If someone was scripture baptized -I would not baptize them again.

(oops - I initially put" Spiritually"
can I blame word correct)

 

[1689Dave]

Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. Altar calls and the sinner's prayer deceive believers into thinking they saved themselves by reciting a chant and going forward. They believed and had eternal life or they would not have followed these false admonitions.

 

[JonC]

Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. Altar calls and the sinner's prayer deceive believers into thinking they saved themselves by reciting a chant and going forward. They believed and had eternal life or they would not have followed these false admonitions.

Scripture also tells us that, as ambassadors to Christ we are to plead on Christ's behalf that men be reconciled to God.

I understand that those things can be misused. But we cannot discount our "ministry of reconciliation" simply because other's have taken things to extremes.

That said, I am not sure that you and I have the same idea about an "altar call". Growing up an "altar call" was used in about every Baptist church in our area. The pastor would give a presentation of the gospel and invite people to come down to the "altar" if God was working in their lives. He would use the "sinners prayer" and say if those words reflect your repentance then now is the acceptable time. If someone came down then the pastor would keep him or her after the service and meet with them, go over the gospel message, etc.

But I have never seen the "sinners prayer" used as a "say this and you are saved" kind of thing. I have heard that it has been used that way, and if so I agree it is wrong. I do not know of many churches who now use the tool as so many have decried it's use because of it's supposed misuse.

I am not exactly sure why "altar calls" (pleading that men be reconciled with God and following up with them by witnessing to them about the gospel) is such a bad thing other than the use of "altar".

 

[1689Dave]

The real gospel is an announcement that whoever believes it has eternal life. And then if you believe, repent from your sins and get baptized. If you must choose to believe, it means you hear it as a false legalistic gospel and a matter of superstition.

Salvation is an experience that causes a person to believe.

 

[JonC]

The real gospel is an announcement that whoever believes it has eternal life. And then if you believe, repent from your sins and get baptized. If you must choose to believe, it means you hear it as a false legalistic gospel and a matter of superstition.

Salvation is an experience that causes a person to believe.

Maybe it would help to say exactly what each of us believes constitutes an "altar call".

In my experience what has been called an "altar call" is a "plea for men to be reconciled to God" (what Paul stated as our ministry).

In your experience, how have churches used an "altar call"?

 

[1689Dave]

Maybe it would help to say exactly what each of us believes constitutes an "altar call".

In my experience what has been called an "altar call" is a "plea for men to be reconciled to God" (what Paul stated as our ministry).

In your experience, how have churches used an "altar call"?

All free-will-based churches I've attended use it. But there is no scripture supporting it. The biblical model is announcing the good news to believers. Followed by the command to repent and be baptized. Only those who believe will follow through. In scripture, however, they included this in the gospel of the (Amillennial) kingdom as did Peter at Pentecost. Most reject Jesus' gospel of the kingdom and side with the Pharisees believing in their "pre-millennial" kingdom of the future.

 

[JonC]

All free-will-based churches I've attended use it. But there is no scripture supporting it. The biblical model is announcing the good news to believers. Followed by the command to repent and be baptized. Only those who believe will follow through. In scripture, however, they included this in the gospel of the (Amillennial) kingdom as did Peter at Pentecost. Most reject Jesus' gospel of the kingdom and side with the Pharisees believing in their "pre-millennial" kingdom of the future.

I've never attended a free-will Baptist church, so that may be why I am not seeing what you have experienced.

What I have experienced as an "altar call" is the pastor explains the gospel and invites anyone who believes God is drawing them to a discussion as the pastor wants to make sure the gospel has been explained, the person understands, any questions are addressed, etc. These types of "altar calls" are, IMHO, essential because we cannot just assume the person seeking baptism has received the gospel. I know we can never be sure the person has truly believed, but I think it is important to examine what the person believes or understands about salvation.

 

[1689Dave]

I've never attended a free-will Baptist church, so that may be why I am not seeing what you have experienced.

What I have experienced as an "altar call" is the pastor explains the gospel and invites anyone who believes God is drawing them to a discussion as the pastor wants to make sure the gospel has been explained, the person understands, any questions are addressed, etc. These types of "altar calls" are, IMHO, essential because we cannot just assume the person seeking baptism has received the gospel. I know we can never be sure the person has truly believed, but I think it is important to examine what the person believes or understands about salvation.

Normally what I see in scripture instead of this type of situation happens with the preaching. Where repentance and baptism are made clear.

 

[Salty]

Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. Altar calls and the sinner's prayer deceive believers into thinking they saved themselves by reciting a chant and going forward. They believed and had eternal life or they would not have followed these false admonitions.

Dave - your statement is incorrect ! Now, I would agree if properly restated as:

... Altar calls and the sinner's prayer CAN deceive believers into thinking they saved themselves by reciting a chant and going forward. ... (Bold = my addition)

As I mentioned before - if someone is coming forward for salvation - I would never do the counseling at the "altar" -- they should be taken to a separate room.....

 

[Salty]

Please note I had to make a correction in post # 30

 

[1689Dave]

Dave - your statement is incorrect ! Now, I would agree if properly restated as:

... Altar calls and the sinner's prayer CAN deceive believers into thinking they saved themselves by reciting a chant and going forward. ... (Bold = my addition)

As I mentioned before - if someone is coming forward for salvation - I would never do the counseling at the "altar" -- they should be taken to a separate room.....

They must believe (be saved) before they would act on it. But many become deceived by the preacher thinking their acting on it saved them. Billy Graham is an example of this deception.