Altar Calls and Sinners Prayer

[canadyjd]

Faith in Christ is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. You make it a work of the flesh that cannot discern the true Christ.

I quoted scripture (1Cor 1:21) to support my position.

You state your opinion and then attack everyone who disagrees with your “works-based” salvation assertion.

Just because you say it, doesn’t make it true.

I’ll follow scripture, not your opinion.

peace to you

 

[robycop3]

The term "altar call" is a matter of semantics. Jesus made altars obsolete with the sacrifice of Himself on the cross. But there's nothing wrong with a pastor's inviting those who were led to Christ thru his sermon that day to come forward, thus showing others their committemnt to Jesus, and remaining after the service for further counseling.

As for the "sinner's prayer", there's certainly nothing wrong with one's praying, "Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner". I do it every day!

 

[JonC]

As I understand, the New Birth precedes the effective hearing of the gospel if even by a second. The gospel also saves by focusing us on Christ's kingdom and shed blood for our sins and his burial and resurrection verifying his sinlessness. But infants among the elect also die and go to heaven apart from the usual means.

I don't know about a time line. I keep thinking about the passage in Romabd that says "How can they believe unless they hear?".

 

[Alan Gross]

Like nearly everything else, it depends on the meaning people assign to it.

Altar call:

No problem with urging folks to repent of sin and accept Christ by faith. No need to change locations to do that.

If you believe coming to the altar is a necessary act for salvation, then I’m against it.

Explain the way folks are accepted into membership is to come before the fellowship and (1) make a profession of faith (2) express the desire to join with the fellowship.

Sinners prayer:

No problem with prayers, though a “standard prayer” for salvation leads to (1) legalistic method to attain salvation (2) false professions of faith (3) false assurance of salvation by others.

peace to you

reference: Sinners Acquitted by Jesus' Death, Burial, and Resurrection, & Imparted Righteousness, by the Gift of Repentance and Faith: (i.e., no mention of an 'alter' or 'praying') http://links.christreformed.org/romans/MS20020825.Rom.1.16-17.A_Righteousness_from_God.mp3

 

[1689Dave]

I quoted scripture (1Cor 1:21) to support my position.

You state your opinion and then attack everyone who disagrees with your “works-based” salvation assertion.

Just because you say it, doesn’t make it true.

I’ll follow scripture, not your opinion.

peace to you

“For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.” 1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV 1900)

“Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.” Hebrews 12:2 (KJV 1900)

 

[1689Dave]

I don't know about a time line. I keep thinking about the passage in Romabd that says "How can they believe unless they hear?".

The new birth enables them to understand and believe once they hear. What about Cornelius and his obvious fruit of the Spirit before he heard Peter preach? Or Peter who says; “But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.” Acts 10:35 (KJV 1900)

We gather the born again when we preach the gospel That's why the gospel is an announcement for those who naturally believe apart from any decision making.

 

[canadyjd]

.....

We gather the born again when we preach the gospel That's why the gospel is an announcement for those who naturally believe apart from any decision making.

No one will “naturally believe”. Salvation is a supernatural event enabled by God from start to finish.

Scripture does not say, “God was well pleased to gather those that are already saved by the preaching of the gospel.”

Scripture says “God was well pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those that believe.”

Message preached leads to belief leads to salvation.

Your position is contradicted by scripture. If my position were contradicted by scripture, I’d change my opinion.

peace to you

 

[atpollard]

reference: Sinners Acquitted by Jesus' Death, Burial, and Resurrection, & Imparted Righteousness, by the Gift of Repentance and Faith: (i.e., no mention of an 'alter' or 'praying') http://links.christreformed.org/romans/MS20020825.Rom.1.16-17.A_Righteousness_from_God.mp3

[Romans 10:9-10]
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

• The "Altar Call" and "Sinner's Prayer" ARE the calling of men to "believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead" and thus "believeth unto righteousness", and then come forward to "confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus" and in doing so, confess "unto salvation".

Q.E.D.
There is nothing innately wrong with the practice as it has scriptural support for its efficacy and a long tradition of empirical verification. The actual terms are peculiar, but so are many "Christianese" terms and expressions.

 

[1689Dave]

No one will “naturally believe”. Salvation is a supernatural event enabled by God from start to finish.

Scripture does not say, “God was well pleased to gather those that are already saved by the preaching of the gospel.”

Scripture says “God was well pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those that believe.”

Message preached leads to belief leads to salvation.

Your position is contradicted by scripture. If my position were contradicted by scripture, I’d change my opinion.

peace to you

The born-again naturally believes the good news when they hear it. The lost cannot discern it but think it is a law they must keep. Many tares come about this way. But the rest reject it.

 

[canadyjd]

The born-again naturally believes the good news when they hear it. The lost cannot discern it but think it is a law they must keep. Many tares come about this way. But the rest reject it.

Again, you equate regeneration with salvation. Regeneration is part of the salvation process and leads to faith in Christ for salvation, but a person is not saved until they respond to the gospel with faith in Jesus.

peace to you

 

[1689Dave]

Again, you equate regeneration with salvation. Regeneration is part of the salvation process and leads to faith in Christ for salvation, but a person is not saved until they respond to the gospel with faith in Jesus.

peace to you

The new birth is salvation. It is the resurrection of the human spirit from the dead.

“And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;” Ephesians 2:1 (KJV 1900)

“And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;” Colossians 2:10–13 (KJV 1900)

How can you have the Holy Spirit and not be saved? Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

 

[1689Dave]

Again, you equate regeneration with salvation. Regeneration is part of the salvation process and leads to faith in Christ for salvation, but a person is not saved until they respond to the gospel with faith in Jesus.

peace to you

= salvation by works.............

 

[canadyjd]

The new birth is salvation. It is the resurrection of the human spirit from the dead.

“And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;” Ephesians 2:1 (KJV 1900)

“And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;” Colossians 2:10–13 (KJV 1900)

How can you have the Holy Spirit and not be saved? Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Are you saying the gospel is not necessary for salvation? Yes or no will do.

peace to you

 

[1689Dave]

Are you saying the gospel is not necessary for salvation? Yes or no will do.

peace to you

It is part of God's plan that the saved (born again) will hear the gospel. But some are beyond the reach. It's like the song Bringing in the sheaths. The born again are the sheaths we seek out with the gospel.

“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.” Acts 10:34–35 (KJV 1900)

Only the born again, like Cornelius, can do this.

 

[canadyjd]

It is part of God's plan that the saved (born again) will hear the gospel. But some are beyond the reach. It's like the song Bringing in the sheaths. The born again are the sheaths we seek out with the gospel.

“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.” Acts 10:34–35 (KJV 1900)

Only the born again, like Cornelius, can do this.

So, again, I’m not asking if the “saved” will hear the gospel at some point in their life.

I’m asking you directly, is the gospel necessary for salvation? Yes or no will do.

You seem to be saying it isn’t. That people are already saved prior to hearing the gospel.

Such a belief, if that is what you are saying, is clearly contrary to scripture.

Quite frankly, if that is what you believe, it would be better for you not to answer directly.

peace to you

 

[JonC]

The new birth enables them to understand and believe once they hear. What about Cornelius and his obvious fruit of the Spirit before he heard Peter preach? Or Peter who says; “But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.” Acts 10:35 (KJV 1900)

We gather the born again when we preach the gospel That's why the gospel is an announcement for those who naturally believe apart from any decision making.

The problem with time lines like this is you end up with at least a fraction of time that is contrary with Scripture (you either have an unsaved believer or a reborn unbeliever). What must one do to see or enter the kingdom of God? He must be reborn. What must one do to be saved? He must repent and believe. But to believe he must first hear the gospel. How is one born into eternal life? By believing in (Scripture says "on") Christ.

I personally believe the orders of salvation tear apart the gospel and attempt to make micro-doctrines that tend to miss the point of the gospel of Jesus Christ. So I do not put much stock into either side of this argument. I believe these arguments miss the point of Scripture.

 

[Jerome]

The born again are the sheaths we seek out with the gospel.

Huh? They're sheaths?
That's a new one. Some sort of lingo '1689' folks use?

 

[canadyjd]

The problem with time lines like this is you end up with at least a fraction of time that is contrary with Scripture (you either have an unsaved believer or a reborn unbeliever). What must one do to see or enter the kingdom of God? He must be reborn. What must one do to be saved? He must repent and believe. But to believe he must first hear the gospel. How is one born into eternal life? By believing in (Scripture says "on") Christ.

I personally believe the orders of salvation tear apart the gospel and attempt to make micro-doctrines that tend to miss the point of the gospel of Jesus Christ. So I do not put much stock into either side of this argument. I believe these arguments miss the point of Scripture.

Well stated. No need to make salvation more complicated than needed.

peace to you

 

[atpollard]

Huh? They're sheaths?
That's a new one. Some sort of lingo '1689' folks use?

Psalm 126:6 "He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him."

Don't let a spelling error cause you to miss some potential truth.

Bringing in the Sheaves
Knowles Shaw, 1874

Sowing in the morning, sowing seeds of kindness,
Sowing in the noontide and the dewy eve;
Waiting for the harvest, and the time of reaping,
We shall come rejoicing, bringing in the sheaves.

Refrain:
Bringing in the sheaves, bringing in the sheaves,
We shall come rejoicing, bringing in the sheaves;
Bringing in the sheaves, bringing in the sheaves,
We shall come rejoicing, bringing in the sheaves.

Sowing in the sunshine, sowing in the shadows,
Fearing neither clouds nor winter’s chilling breeze;
By and by the harvest, and the labor ended,
We shall come rejoicing, bringing in the sheaves.

Going forth with weeping, sowing for the Master,
Though the loss sustained our spirit often grieves;
When our weeping’s over, He will bid us welcome,
We shall come rejoicing, bringing in the sheaves.

 

[1689Dave]

Huh? They're sheaths?
That's a new one. Some sort of lingo '1689' folks use?

Old Baptists used to sing "Bringing in the Sheaths". It doesn't quite fit with today's new-fangled gospel. But the old hymns had lots of truth people think strange today. Here's a new-fangled version of "Amazing Grace" for the younger set.

Contingent Grace (To the tune of Amazing Grace).

contingent grace how sweet the sound
that saves by works foreseen
I once was lost but came around
was blind but chose to see

'twas that "grace" that looked ahead
and saw that I would be
never bound by sin and such
but with a will that's free