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Dispensationalism
- Thread starter Humble Disciple
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The true Church will have all the redeemed from Adam forward in her!
Do you, as a dispensationalist, believe that God has created "ages," a few which are in time and some in eternity future? And do you, as a premillennialist, believe that God has judged men under different principles of divine dealing in each of those ages and will deal with men differently during the 1000 years reign of Christ on the earth that you say you believe is coming.?
Replacement Theology, and your efforts to present irrelevant diversions. See Galatians 3
You are in error of what you state traditional dispensationalists believes in relation to the OT. The new testament is a new testament, not an OT revamped.
Everything about this age is new. However you are right to believe the governing principles of previous dispensations are still in effect even after they cease being the operative principle. All of God's principles will be effective when Christ reign's under the final operative principle in time, righteousness. It is just one operative principle at a time. All the other principles are present even when they are not the operative principle. There is grace under the principle of law. Remember that David committed two sins, adultery and murder, both requiring the death penalty under law, yet God through grace delivered him.
All the families of the earth were put under the principle of human government when Noah landed on this side of the flood, and gentiles remained under that principle until Acts 10 when God opened the door of faith to us through Peter. This is the beginning of the principle of grace to gentiles and is a pivot point in God's dealing with the nations. God calls this the gospel of God and he has one special apostle, saved 7 years after the resurrection in 37 AD and prepared him through special revelation of his dealings with the gentile church. The theme of his 13 letters to the gentiles is "the gospel of God," which in short simply means it is the good news, glad tidings, that God will now save the nations through the blood sacrifice that they did not have in the OT and which he himself has provided in Jesus Christ when he died on the cross and God made it efficacious to us. The very first verse in the very first letter to the gentiles in the scriptures says as much.
Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, Paul will call this "my gospel" three times in his letters.
He was separated from the other apostles, the 12, who were apostles to the circumcision. See Ga 2 for verification of this truth.
Here is a nutshell definition from God of what he means by the gospel of God.
Rom 16:24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.
I remind you that Rome was the seat of power over the whole world when this was written and Paul was the apostle to the world. This is brand new stuff. The gentiles had been governed by the principle of human government and now God is asking the nations to be obedient to him by believing in Jesus Christ who died for us all and rose again from the dead. Human government remains an operative principle even after grace has taken center stage and will never end because Jesus Christ is human as well as divine and he will take the throne and rule forever and forever even as the operative principle of any given dispensation changes.
When Jesus Christ takes his throne he will bring the nations into judgement to determine which will go into the millennial kingdom.
Matt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Traditional dispensationalism is the only thing that makes sense. A traditional dispensationalist can and must believe every word of the bible. It gives great comfort.
Eph 1:1 For this cause (the building of the church - see previous chapter) I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
These are marvelous and wonderful truths and God should be praised for his wonderful grace through out Lord Jesus Christ.
4 Lo, a presumptuous one! Not upright is his soul within him, And the righteous by his stedfastness liveth. Hab 2 YLT
5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: Ro 2
In sotierology am a Calvinist, in eschatology hold with historical premil, not Dispy form!
there is but one Body of christ, one set of the redeemed. as both OT and NT saints believed in same Messiah and are in same group, spiritual israel!
I do not believe your post accurately reflects my understanding of the false doctrine of "Traditional Dispensationalism."
You provided no specific quote. Did you post strawperson arguments?
Non responsive smokescreed...
I believe those holding CT hold false doctrine. It has to do with accepting the bible says what it means...
Yet another off topic personal insult posted by a Calvinist. Everyone knows Calvinists cannot defend their false doctrines, that is why they seek to change the subject to some imagined flaw in the character of those exposing their false doctrine.
Dispensationalism is a theological term used to describe a method of interpreting the Bible. Progressive Dispensation is one version of many that differs from Traditional Dispensationalism. Dispensationalists believe Christ will govern upon David’s throne here on earth for one thousand years, or in other words they take those passages literally. Therefore Dispensationalists like to excoriate the “Reformed, Replacement Theology, Amillennialists” as not interpreting the Bible literally and therefore we stand on higher ground. And so it goes in theological debate.
Sadly the first thing to grasp is that the main difference between Covenant Theology (errant Amillennialists) and we, the virtuous Dispensationalists, has little to do with the idea that God governs man in differing ways. Both schools of thought agree God deals with man in different ways. No the chief difference is in our views of an End Times dispensation. Basically both schools agree on: 1) Dispensation of Innocence or how God dealt with man before the fall; 2) Dispensation of Conscious or how God deals with man without the Law; 3) Dispensation of the Law or how God deals with man with the Law; 4) Dispensation of Grace or how God deals with man in Christ Jesus before the Second Coming; 5) the Millennial Kingdom or how God deals with all Israel on earth after the Second Coming; and 6) the Eternal Kingdom or how God deals with his children in eternity. Now the chief difference is that the Amillennialists believe the fifth age is going on right now in heaven so the Second Coming will inaugurate the sixth dispensation. Hence, Amillennialists are against the idea of a thousand year reign of Christ on earth. Rather, they hold to the idea that the Church replaced Israel (Replacement Theology) and the promises to Israel have been transferred to the Church and are being fulfilled in heaven during the dispensation of grace.
Let me say here that the above represents my understanding of the issue and I am quite sure I have missed the mark in the details, but I believe the above properly represents the general idea. But now to the heart of the post, what is the difference between a traditional dispensationalist and a progressive dispensationalist?
“Traditional dispensationalists typically see the 'church age' as an interruption or parenthetical period in God's dealing with Israel. The church is seen as unrelated to Israel and the new covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34.” (Tim Warner)
Progressive dispensationalists see the Church Age as a progression where God deals with the faithful in a new covenant enabled by the blood of Christ, and this Dispensation of Grace is available to those with the Law (Jews) and those without the Law (Gentiles who have heard the gospel in light of the Old Testament). Some but not all Old Testament promises apply to the church now, and are not being held in abeyance pending the Second Coming. Thus I can read Galatians 3 and it matches my theology perfectly. Same for Romans 9-11.
Another area where I fundamentally disagree with many is that I believe God is using multiple dispensations at the same time. Therefore today, three dispensations are in effect, God is dealing with those without the Law, who have not heard the gospel presented in light of an understanding of the Old Testament (Dispensation of Conscience); God is dealing with those who have the Law which includes Jews and non Jews who have heard the gospel in light of the Old Testament but have not accepted the gospel and have not been born again (Dispensation of the Law); and three, God is dealing with born again believers, the Dispensation of Grace.
Dispensationalism is a theological term used to describe a method of interpreting the Bible. Progressive Dispensation is one version of many that differs from Traditional Dispensationalism. Dispensationalists believe Christ will govern upon David’s throne here on earth for one thousand years, or in other words they take those passages literally. Therefore Dispensationalists like to excoriate the “Reformed, Replacement Theology, Amillennialists” as not interpreting the Bible literally and therefore we stand on higher ground. And so it goes in theological debate.
Sadly the first thing to grasp is that the main difference between Covenant Theology (errant Amillennialists) and we, the virtuous Dispensationalists, has little to do with the idea that God governs man in differing ways. Both schools of thought agree God deals with man in different ways. No the chief difference is in our views of an End Times dispensation. Basically both schools agree on: 1) Dispensation of Innocence or how God dealt with man before the fall; 2) Dispensation of Conscious or how God deals with man without the Law; 3) Dispensation of the Law or how God deals with man with the Law; 4) Dispensation of Grace or how God deals with man in Christ Jesus before the Second Coming; 5) the Millennial Kingdom or how God deals with all Israel on earth after the Second Coming; and 6) the Eternal Kingdom or how God deals with his children in eternity. Now the chief difference is that the Amillennialists believe the fifth age is going on right now in heaven so the Second Coming will inaugurate the sixth dispensation. Hence, Amillennialists are against the idea of a thousand year reign of Christ on earth. Rather, they hold to the idea that the Church replaced Israel (Replacement Theology) and the promises to Israel have been transferred to the Church and are being fulfilled in heaven during the dispensation of grace.
Let me say here that the above represents my understanding of the issue and I am quite sure I have missed the mark in the details, but I believe the above properly represents the general idea. But now to the heart of the post, what is the difference between a traditional dispensationalist and a progressive dispensationalist?
“Traditional dispensationalists typically see the 'church age' as an interruption or parenthetical period in God's dealing with Israel. The church is seen as unrelated to Israel and the new covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34.” (Tim Warner)
Progressive dispensationalists see the Church Age as a progression where God deals with the faithful in a new covenant enabled by the blood of Christ, and this Dispensation of Grace is available to those with the Law (Jews) and those without the Law (Gentiles who have heard the gospel in light of the Old Testament). Some but not all Old Testament promises apply to the church now, and are not being held in abeyance pending the Second Coming. Thus I can read Galatians 3 and it matches my theology perfectly. Same for Romans 9-11.
Another area where I fundamentally disagree with many is that I believe God is using multiple dispensations at the same time. Therefore today, three dispensations are in effect, God is dealing with those without the Law, who have not heard the gospel presented in light of an understanding of the Old Testament (Dispensation of Conscience); God is dealing with those who have the Law which includes Jews and non Jews who have heard the gospel in light of the Old Testament but have not accepted the gospel and have not been born again (Dispensation of the Law); and three, God is dealing with born again believers, the Dispensation of Grace.
Van, let's be civil. What makes my traditional dispensational position a false doctrine? I certainly must have misunderstood your points and I have upset you. Sorry about that.
Let me just briefly correct what you said about my traditionalism.
The first sentence is correct but the second is not. Here is the reason.
The church of Jesus Christ with the inclusion of gentiles is a result of the failure of the generation of Jesus Christ to receive him as their Messiah and in doing so committing the unpardonable sin. Moses said in Psa 90 that a generation in this context is 70 years. This would make the generation of Jesus Christ to end in AD 70. Since the national rulers failed and only a remnant believed in Jesus, he said they would be blinded and he refused to save them, but he would save the individuals who would trust him. These Jews are called in this age, the remnant according to the election of grace.
Now, this blessing of the church of Jesus Christ is for the Jews, and the gentiles were included by the grace of God. The foundation of this church is Jewish. Read Eph 2 here and you cannot miss the scriptures saying it outright. The building on the foundation is gentile and Jew. The gentiles were made "PARTAKERS" of the spiritual blessings of Israel while God has them judicially blinded. Though the church of Jesus Christ is fashioned by the Spirit from both Jews and gentiles, they are two groups in one body and are one, sort of like you and your wife, whom the Lord says the two shall be one.
The apostles are Christians but they are also Jews and to show this, Jesus said this about the 12.
Matt 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
So you see, there is interaction between Israel and the church in the millennium.
Check this parable out that gives us the characteristics of this age.
Lk 14:16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, (The JEWS Acts 2:-7) Come; for all things are now ready.
18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.(The SAMARITANS Acts 8)
22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.(The GENTILES - Acts 10 until now)
24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.
Matt 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them (the Jews) in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
This post will show that the church of Jesus Christ, though gentile in nature, has a Jewish foundation and the blessings of salvation is of the Jews, just like Jesus said in Jn 4.The spiritual blessings is the gift of the Holy Ghost and the forgiveness of sins in Jesus name. As far as I know, this is what traditional dispensationalists teach. Where would you disagree?
The Church was not an afterthought, plan B, as God always knew Israel proper would reject Jesus as messiah, and thus the Church would come, when both saved Jews and gentiles in her!
1) I am civil, except I am intolerant of false doctrine per scripture's command.
2) Galatians 3 makes traditional dispensationalism false doctrine as the church is part of "all Israel."
3) I assume the generation of Jesus refers to the Jews in that 70 year period. I disagree, because the inclusion of the Gentiles was promised in the OT. (i.e. nations)
Ephesians 3:6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
4) Yes, I agree, the unpardonable sin is unbelief in Christ.5) Yes, Jesus was a Jew according to the flesh, but salvation originated in God's redemption plan formulated before creation.
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