The Elect are Manifested in Repentance and Faith and Good works.

[Brightfame52]

canady

So, you seem to acknowledge believing and repenting are necessary for salvation but make a distinction between whether they come from a natural man or a spiritual man.

Yes If by the natural man its by works, if by the regenerate man they are works of Grace and evidence Salvation, so they are necessary only to evidence Salvation.

I stated repentance faith are a response to a work of God Holy Spirit and are not works.

Yep but the difference is I believe the work of the Holy Spirit is New Birth and they were Justified before God prior to the New Birth,

You believe, correct me if Im wrong, that work of the Spirit isnt the new birth, but His influence to give a person a chance to believe and repent and then God justifies them if they cooperated with the Spirit. Is that what you believe ?

 

[Brightfame52]

canady

Let’s see, I pointed out Titus 3:15 says we are saved “BY” (agency) regeneration and renewal of God Holy Spirit and doesn’t say regeneration IS salvation.

Right, which is one of the stupidest things I heard in a long time, since being saved and Salvation are the same. In fact both words saved/salvation are used in the same verse Acts 4:12

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

 

[George Antonios]

from: https://www.grace-ebooks.com/library/C. D. Cole/CDC_Bible Doctrine of Election The.pdf

7. The Elect are manifested in Repentance and Faith and Good works.

These graces, being God-wrought in man,
are not the cause but the evidences of Election.

I Thess. 1:3-10;

II Peter 1:5-10;

Phil. 2:12,13;

• Just like Lot (that just and righteous man - 2Pe.2:7-8) persevered in faith and good works?
• Just like Saul (who God gave him another heart - 1Sa.10:9, and was turned into another man by the Spirit of the LORD - 1Sa.10:6) persevered in faith and good works?

Someone is going to have to tell Peter that Lot wasn't "elect".

But the explanation cannot be dispensational, of course, of course.

 

[DaveXR650]

But the explanation cannot be dispensational, of course, of course.

It's not that it can't be. It's just that in the context of the OP, I think he was thinking of those who believe in individual election. I used to be dispensationalist, and never really rejected it so much as I just got away from thinking in those terms. But if you're a Calvinist, the question is going to come up as to how you know you are elect and if there is anything you can do about it. One of the main reasons I gravitated towards Calvinism is because my Baptist church I was in kept steadily moving towards the idea that "accepting Jesus into your heart" or saying the sinners prayer ended the issue and any form of a call for self examination raised objections. So the above is an answer to someone who questions their election or more importantly, the reality of their salvation. What would you tell them?

 

[George Antonios]

Well, I explain my "view", here:

Btw, there is no such thing as election unto salvation from hell in the scriptures, not if we let context speak.

 

[canadyjd]

canady

Right, which is one of the stupidest things I heard in a long time, since being saved and Salvation are the same. In fact both words saved/salvation are used in the same verse Acts 4:12

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

canady….
You believe, correct me if Im wrong, that work of the Spirit isnt the new birth, but His influence to give a person a chance to believe and repent and then God justifies them if they cooperated with the Spirit. Is that what you believe ?

I believe scripture teaches the work of God Holy Spirit in regeneration is the beginning of the new birth. Regeneration is not salvation. God Holy Spirit regenerates the person, convicts them of sin, convicts them of the truth of Jesus Christ and Him crucified. The person responds to this work of God Holy Spirit, each and every time, with faith in Jesus.

As I said before, the completed work of God may be instantaneous, so this is an intellectual exercise attempting to identify a logical progression.

I have answered your question concerning what I believe. Will you answer my question about what you believe.

Do you believe a person is saved without faith in Jesus?

I believe faith in Jesus is necessary for salvation.

peace to you

 

[Van]

The Elect are manifested in Repentance and Faith and Good works.

These graces, (repentance, faith and good words) being God-wrought in man,
are not the cause but the evidences of Election.

I Thess. 1:3-10;
II Peter 1:5-10;
Phil. 2:12,13;

Did any of those referenced passages actually support the bogus claim? Nope.

Did anyone claim repentance and faith and good works are the cause of election for salvation? Nope

What is the claim? That by God's grace He allows the lost to hear, understand and respond to the gospel, both by His revelation and by choosing not to harden their hearts.

 

[DaveXR650]

Btw, there is no such thing as election unto salvation from hell in the scriptures, not if we let context speak.

Whether that is true or not, the term "elect" is used by Paul and Peter to address groups of believers in the letters. Now I watched the video above and it's nicely done by the way and thought provoking too because it does seem confusing the way people are dealt with in the Old Testament compared to the New. But for now, if you don't believe in election of individuals to salvation or of election at all, the question still is can a person examine and evaluate his progress, or determine if he is on the right path. That is what the reformed theologians were asking and what modern guys like Paul Washer were talking about in his famous "Shocking Youth Message". I know some Baptists who believe that a profession of faith means that the question is closed and salvation if guaranteed no matter how you act after that profession. The reformers taught that sin in the life can result in God's hand being against you in physical ways but they also taught that there is no security to be had for such a person if they find such behavior in their own lives. Where do you come down on this for people today, in this dispensation?

 

[DaveXR650]

What is the claim? That by God's grace He allows the lost to hear, understand and respond to the gospel, both by His revelation and by choosing not to harden their hearts.

Use any terminology you want, eventually each person has to ask themselves if they have responded and what exactly does that mean, and there will be some self evaluation as to whether they have hardened their hearts. I mean, I can claim my heart is hard, soft, or responsive to God's will all I want but the bottom line is do I evidence it by repentance, faith and good works or do you have some other way? Can you claim to believe and not have some change in your life.

 

[Brightfame52]

I believe scripture teaches the work of God Holy Spirit in regeneration is the beginning of the new birth. Regeneration is not salvation. God Holy Spirit regenerates the person, convicts them of sin, convicts them of the truth of Jesus Christ and Him crucified. The person responds to this work of God Holy Spirit, each and every time, with faith in Jesus.

As I said before, the completed work of God may be instantaneous, so this is an intellectual exercise attempting to identify a logical progression.

I have answered your question concerning what I believe. Will you answer my question about what you believe.

Do you believe a person is saved without faith in Jesus?

I believe faith in Jesus is necessary for salvation.

peace to you

Again, its foolish to say regeneration isnt salvation, when scripture says that it is Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

 

[Van]

Use any terminology you want, eventually each person has to ask themselves if they have responded and what exactly does that mean, and there will be some self evaluation as to whether they have hardened their hearts. I mean, I can claim my heart is hard, soft, or responsive to God's will all I want but the bottom line is do I evidence it by repentance, faith and good works or do you have some other way? Can you claim to believe and not have some change in your life.

Wait a minute, Sir. I did not advocate "Easy Believism." Here is what I said:

That by God's grace He allows the lost to hear, understand and respond to the gospel, both by His revelation and by choosing not to harden their hearts.​

Note this presents the lost as able to effectively and affirmatively respond to the gospel of Christ. The OP's false premise is that repentance, faith and good works are the result of election, rather than the cause. This claim is partly right, our good works are the result of election for salvation, because as a new creation, we are then created for good works. However the other two, repentance and faith reflect our belief in Christ "before" our individual election for salvation through "faith in the truth" 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

 

[Brightfame52]

Wait a minute, Sir. I did not advocate "Easy Believism." Here is what I said:

That by God's grace He allows the lost to hear, understand and respond to the gospel, both by His revelation and by choosing not to harden their hearts.​

Note this presents the lost as able to effectively and affirmatively respond to the gospel of Christ. The OP's false premise is that repentance, faith and good works are the result of election, rather than the cause. This claim is partly right, our good works are the result of election for salvation, because as a new creation, we are then created for good works. However the other two, repentance and faith reflect our belief in Christ "before" our individual election for salvation through "faith in the truth" 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

By Gods Grace He gives the lost life from the dead, which is regeneration/new birth then they hear.

 

[Van]

By Gods Grace He gives the lost life from the dead, which is regeneration/new birth then they hear.

True, we are made alive, together with Christ, Ephesians 2:5. Thus our regeneration (being made alive) occurs after God chooses us individually and places us within Christ's spiritual body, thus "together with Christ."

 

[canadyjd]

Again, its foolish to say regeneration isnt salvation, when scripture says that it is Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Will you please answer my question?

If faith in Jesus Christ necessary for salvation?

I suspect the only reason you will not answer directly is because you understand that your stated belief that regeneration IS salvation means faith in Jesus Christ is not necessary for salvation. The preaching of the gospel, therefore, is not necessary for salvation.

You also understand that if you say faith is necessary for salvation, then that faith must be exercised PRIOR to regeneration. This brings you to believe the very thing you are seeking to avoid. If someone exercised faith prior to regeneration, then it becomes a works based salvation.

I patiently await your answer to my question, is faith in Jesus Christ necessary for salvation?

peace to you

 

[DaveXR650]

Wait a minute, Sir. I did not advocate "Easy Believism." Here is what I said:
That by God's grace He allows the lost to hear, understand and respond to the gospel, both by His revelation and by choosing not to harden their hearts.
Note this presents the lost as able to effectively and affirmatively respond to the gospel of Christ. The OP's false premise is that repentance, faith and good works are the result of election, rather than the cause. This claim is partly right, our good works are the result of election for salvation, because as a new creation, we are then created for good works. However the other two, repentance and faith reflect our belief in Christ "before" our individual election for salvation through "faith in the truth" 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

No problem. You and George for that matter have gotten in on the tail end of an intramural dispute over how "election" relates to faith, belief and living. If you believe that election does not concern individuals to salvation or that it occurs after you believe then the OP has nothing to do with you directly. It is assuming that you believe in election prior to salvation of individuals and that only "elect" people are saved.

But the question comes up even for Calvinists, "Can you know if you are elect". And is it proper to look for certain things as evidence. And if it is proper to look - then what if anything can a person do in response. This then opens up a whole subject of whether you can then decide to believe or repent or respond to your inquiry and is it proper to ask people to do so. I believe that no matter how strong a Calvinist you are, there is still an interaction that occurs between God and man where man must respond with his will to what amounts to an "invitation" to believe the gospel. Alan may or may not know it but the OP is almost a quote from one of John Owen's works. His answer was "Yes" and he also said it was sinful to speculate about election in any other way than by it's results.

 

[Van]

No problem. You and George for that matter have gotten in on the tail end of an intramural dispute over how "election" relates to faith, belief and living. If you believe that election does not concern individuals to salvation or that it occurs after you believe then the OP has nothing to do with you directly. It is assuming that you believe in election prior to salvation of individuals and that only "elect" people are saved.
SNIP
.

Did the above even address my view? Not in the slightest.
The claim is if you believe election for salvation occurs after you believe, then the OP which offers another view, has nothing to do with you. Nonsense.

And then note the implication we do not believe "election is prior to salvation" which of course we do believe, and then the implication we do not believe "only elect people are saved" which of course we do believe.

Ask yourself why do none of these posters ever actually address the alternate to their bogus view?

 

[DaveXR650]

Did the above even address my view? Not in the slightest.

You mean this?

Note this presents the lost as able to effectively and affirmatively respond to the gospel of Christ. The OP's false premise is that repentance, faith and good works are the result of election, rather than the cause. This claim is partly right, our good works are the result of election for salvation, because as a new creation, we are then created for good works. However the other two, repentance and faith reflect our belief in Christ "before" our individual election for salvation through "faith in the truth" 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

First, the OP's "false premise" is the same as John Owen's. Secondly, if you can come up with a statement like the above from 2 Thessalonians 2:13 then there is nothing I can say to you that would help. Like a lot of folks on here you won't consider any theologian's take on something as worth reading and you tend to interpret scripture in unusual ways.

 

[37818]

. . . as John Owen's. . . .

Election is always preceded by a call. And election's condition is, it is not a matter of merit, Matthew 20:1-16.

 

[Brightfame52]

True, we are made alive, together with Christ, Ephesians 2:5. Thus our regeneration (being made alive) occurs after God chooses us individually and places us within Christ's spiritual body, thus "together with Christ."

Until a person is made alive spiritually to God, there isnt anything spiritually they can do.