The Elect are Manifested in Repentance and Faith and Good works.

[37818]

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You will never understand Calvinism if you miss the fact that all the great Calvinists believed that "Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" means exactly what it says without any modification or explanation.

Never been at issue. I have been of my faith since 1962. I do not remember when, maybe sometime in the mid 2000, I bought the book, The Five Points of Calvinism, by David N. Steel and Curtis C. Thomas. I think it thoroughly coveres the Biblical bases for Calvinism.

 

[Brightfame52]

canadyjd

I defined what I meant by “salvation”. Salvation is having a right relationship with God. The person moves from being in a condition of condemnation before God into a condition of being justified (declared not guilty) before God.

No for this aspect of salvation faith nor repentance are required ! Only the Death of Christ for you.

 

[canadyjd]

canadyjd

No for this aspect of salvation faith nor repentance are required ! Only the Death of Christ for you.

Thank you for answering directly. I disagree. I believe faith in Jesus Christ is necessary to be in a right relationship with God.

I don’t see “aspects” of salvation in scripture. You are in a right relationship with God or you are not.

Thanks for the conversation.

peace to you

 

[Brightfame52]

canadyjd

.

I disagree. I believe faith in Jesus Christ is necessary to be in a right relationship with God.

I knew you would, and that's unfortunate because it means you are in the dark as to the Justifying value and property of the Blood of Christ before the Law and Justice of God upon all for whom He died Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

I don’t see “aspects” of salvation in scripture.

I do

You are in a right relationship with God or you are not.

I agree

Thanks for the conversation.

You are welcome

 

[Van]

Yes it does mean that, otherwise being dead, men dont even seek God, have no desire for Him, dont understand the True God, just idols Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Here a verse is cited with the implication that no lost person ever understands the gospel, but Matthew 13 teaches soils #2, 3 and 4 did understand the gospel to a degree and sought God. Then, Matthew 23:13 has lost people seeking God even though "dead" in sin. So Romans 3:11 indicates everyone does not understand or seek God all the time or when sinning.

 

[Van]

I see that the Gospel is hid to the Lost, and they believe not. See while lost their minds are blinded, plus they dead in sin

It is not hid from all the lost all the time.

 

[Van]

Faith is not utilized in our election. The reformers felt this was important enough to devote a whole letter of the TULIP, the "U" to show that election was not based on anything found in us but only in God's will and providence. You are free to reject their explanation but you can't come up with your own explanation of what they meant when they defined it so carefully.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 clearly teaches we are chosen for salvation through "faith in the truth."

 

[Brightfame52]

Here a verse is cited with the implication that no lost person ever understands the gospel, but Matthew 13 teaches soils #2, 3 and 4 did understand the gospel to a degree and sought God. Then, Matthew 23:13 has lost people seeking God even though "dead" in sin. So Romans 3:11 indicates everyone does not understand or seek God all the time or when sinning.

Sorry, men naturally men dont seek after the True God, nor understandeth the True God

Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

[Brightfame52]

It is not hid from all the lost all the time.

Yes it is, the word hid is in the perfect tense in the original, meaning its a completed action in the past with results into the present. So its permanent as long as one is in a lost state.

 

[Van]

Sorry, men naturally men dont seek after the True God, nor understandeth the True God

Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Still not addressing the response in Matthew 13 or Matthew 23. Your claim is unbiblical. I addressed Romans 3:11, why not offer a response to biblical truth?

 

[Van]

Yes it is, the word hid is in the perfect tense in the original, meaning its a completed action in the past with results into the present. So its permanent as long as one is in a lost state.

Still ignoring Matthew 13 and Matthew 23. Repeating bogus claims and not acknowledging biblical truth is underwhelming.
To repeat:

Here a verse is cited with the implication that no lost person ever understands the gospel, but Matthew 13 teaches soils #2, 3 and 4 did understand the gospel to a degree and sought God. Then, Matthew 23:13 has lost people seeking God even though "dead" in sin. So Romans 3:11 indicates everyone does not understand or seek God all the time or when sinning.

​

 

[Van]

2 Chronicles 15:4
Because of their distress, they turned back to the LORD God of Israel. They sought him and he responded to them.

2Chronicles 17:4
but instead sought the God of his ancestors and obeyed his commands, unlike the Israelites.

Psalms 78:34
When he struck them down, they sought his favor; they turned back and longed for God.

Only the biblically unstudied make the claim that the lost never at any time seek God.

 

[DaveXR650]

2 Thessalonians 2:13 clearly teaches we are chosen for salvation through "faith in the truth."

Van. Some of the people that I read and really respect agree with you on this and do not believe in an election of individuals. I come from a Baptist background that was moving into an "easy believism" where you would try to get a decision out of someone and then spend the rest of your life trying to have enough programs and fun things to do to keep them in church. I started reading Puritans, and found a depth of devotion that I found helpful. Only later I started looking at the Calvinism and while I think it makes sense, I am not a warrior for the TULIP.

Now the OP on this thread is a lot like something John Owen said and it really has no meaning to you if you don't believe in the election of individual persons to salvation. The only thing that I would say in regards to election is that the word occurs frequently in the New Testament and it occurs in relation to believers who seem to have been worried about what would happen to them. I also think that "election" emphasizes choose or being chosen as the only criteria. If you set up a scenario where being picked is based on some thing you do then that is not "election". If you say someone is "elect" then they were chosen. If the person won a game, set a record, got a degree, came to faith or anything like that in order to be selected you don't say they were elect. Even in our modern use of the term someone who gets elected is the chosen one for that office. You might say "but they're an idiot or incompetent" or whatever but the fact is they were chosen or "elected". The emphasis is totally on the choosing, not their qualifications. Voters may have attempted to pick rationally but still the definition of the one chosen is the "elect" and it means the bare fact they were chosen and as we all know has nothing to do with their internal qualifications.

 

[Van]

Van. Some of the people that I read and really respect agree with you on this and do not believe in an election of individuals. I come from a Baptist background that was moving into an "easy believism" where you would try to get a decision out of someone and then spend the rest of your life trying to have enough programs and fun things to do to keep them in church. I started reading Puritans, and found a depth of devotion that I found helpful. Only later I started looking at the Calvinism and while I think it makes sense, I am not a warrior for the TULIP.

Now the OP on this thread is a lot like something John Owen said and it really has no meaning to you if you don't believe in the election of individual persons to salvation. The only thing that I would say in regards to election is that the word occurs frequently in the New Testament and it occurs in relation to believers who seem to have been worried about what would happen to them. I also think that "election" emphasizes choose or being chosen as the only criteria. If you set up a scenario where being picked is based on some thing you do then that is not "election". If you say someone is "elect" then they were chosen. If the person won a game, set a record, got a degree, came to faith or anything like that in order to be selected you don't say they were elect. Even in our modern use of the term someone who gets elected is the chosen one for that office. You might say "but they're an idiot or incompetent" or whatever but the fact is they were chosen or "elected". The emphasis is totally on the choosing, not their qualifications. Voters may have attempted to pick rationally but still the definition of the one chosen is the "elect" and it means the bare fact they were chosen and as we all know has nothing to do with their internal qualifications.

I have clearly stated dozens of times we as individuals are conditionally elected for salvation through faith in the truth. So for you to say I might not believe in individual election is nonsense. Likewise, in light of 2 Thessalonians 2:13, to claim a conditional election is not an election is unbiblical nonsense. People become "elect" when chosen for something, in our case for salvation through faith in the truth. People who are not chosen, by a majority of the votes, are not said to be elected.

1. Elect means chosen.
2. If someone is chosen for a reason, or the choice is based on a condition, the election is conditional.
3. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 clearly teaches individuals were chosen (elected) through faith in the truth, thus a conditional election.

 

[Van]

Strong's G1588 - eklektos

The KJV translates this Greek word 7 times as chosen and 16 times as elect. Thus the word actually means chosen. The NASB translates the word about a dozen times as chosen. Same for the NET bible, going with chosen about half the time the word is used.

 

[Van]

And while we are at it, take a look at James 2:5, once again God chooses individuals for salvation on the basis of being "rich in faith" and those who "love God." Some translations alter the inspired text by adding "to be" without using italics, for the purpose of turning a conditional election into an unconditional election. However, if you look at the KJV, or NASB, you will see that "to be" is an agenda driven addition.

 

[AustinC]

And while we are at it, take a look at James 2:5, once again God chooses individuals for salvation on the basis of being "rich in faith" and those who "love God." Some translations alter the inspired text by adding "to be" without using italics, for the purpose of turning a conditional election into an unconditional election. However, if you look at the KJV, or NASB, you will see that "to be" is an agenda driven addition.

No
You teach merit based choosing and salvation. It's right in your own words.

*James 2:1-7*
My brothers,show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory. For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in, and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, “You sit here in a good place,” while you say to the poor man, “You stand over there,” or, “Sit down at my feet,” have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him? But you have dishonored the poor man. Are not the rich the ones who oppress you, and the ones who drag you into court? Are they not the ones who blaspheme the honorable name by which you were called?

Read the entire section. James is telling his readers not to be enamored with those who have a lot of money. He is saying that money doesn't matter to God. What matters is that for every believer God has chosen, God has made them rich by giving them faith.

Van, God chose us when we were wretched and without faith. God gave us faith and made us richer than any mortal man could be because of God's gracious gift of faith.

Stop preaching merit based salvation and blessing. You are jettisoning grace and preaching works. Stop it.

 

[Van]

No
You teach merit based choosing and salvation. It's right in your own words.
SNIP

Once again we have a post of deflection, deception and disparagement, devoid of truth.
James 2:5 is there for all to read, God chooses individuals for salvation who are "rich in faith" and who "love God." Full Stop

Did anyone say being rich in faith or loving God "MERITS" salvation? No, that is the falsehood endless posted to deceive.
Scripture says salvation does not depend on the person who wills or does things to be saved, but upon God alone. See Romans 9:16. This verse teaches the lost can will and work to be saved, something denied by a certain sect, and that such effort on the part of the lost does not result in salvation, which depends on God alone.

 

[Van]

I have cited two verses, but there are several verses or passages that teach God chooses those whose faith He credits as righteous faith, such as Romans 4:23-25. Or 1 Corinthians 1:26-30.

 

[DaveXR650]

Strong's G1588 - eklektos

The KJV translates this Greek word 7 times as chosen and 16 times as elect. Thus the word actually means chosen. The NASB translates the word about a dozen times as chosen. Same for the NET bible, going with chosen about half the time the word is used.

This is true but the emphasis is still on the choosing. If you base something on criteria it takes away the fact of the choosing and puts it as a thing won. If I say I will choose one person who gets to go on a free trip and I'm giving it to the one with the highest GPA and then I were to tell that person I came up with this plan a year ago that you would be the elect one you know what they would say? Baloney, I studied hard and beat everyone else on tests so I won. I won fair and square and although you set up the rules I played by them and won and you actually OWE me the position.

2. If someone is chosen for a reason, or the choice is based on a condition, the election is conditional.

Which is why I don't agree with the above quote. It is a contradiction in itself.