Regeneration does precede Redemption

It certainly is not the opposite! You are confusing "sign" and "result," two words with very different meanings. "Big muscles are a sign of a football player" does not mean that the muscles are necessarily a result of the football training." (Did you catch that exciting Superbowl?)

And I never said that sonship is the result of faith.

 

I'm not a hyper Calvinist. Calvinists believe in missions. It's just the clue that "you" can always win someone that I was focusing on.

And I certainly am not casting aspersions on JoJ or John R. Rice.

 

To say that it is a "sign" means that is not the determinate factor. In other words, it excludes the possibility that belief precedes regeneration. We become sons through regeneration, and one of the signs of this, is believing/having faith.

 

"You have to understand the Primitive Baptist view hold to two versions or aspect of salvation. One is in the eternal sense where by all of Gods elect (which INCLUDES christians) are born eternally redeemed and saved and I believe is spoken of as 'Eternal Salvation'.
The second version of salvation is called either temporal or timely salvation in which 'some of' God's elect are called by God into a life of holiness and knowledge of the truth through regeneration (I don't remember all the details here about regeneration though). Why some and not as are given this timely salvation, I never really understood and so won't speculate on it"

The primitive baptists, as far as I know, don't believe in two aspects of salvation. The primitive baptists believe in many aspects of salvation, and this is becasue the bible uses the words save, saved, and salvation to refer to many things. It can refer to one getting to heaven, which is commonly referred to as "eternal salvation." It can also refer to some sort of deliverance which does not directly result in one getting to heaven, often times referred to as "time salvation." While I am in agreement with the concept, I do not like the terms, and this is because it confuses people. I also don't like the terms because it appears as if one is totally divorcing time salvation from eternal salvation, which is not always true.

Consider when Peter was walking on the water towards Jesus Christ. He takes his eyes off the Lord and begins sinking. In this state of peril he cries out, "Lord, save me." Peter doesn't have heaven in mind, but merely wants to be rescued from the current peril he is in. That is an example of what the Primitive baptists mean by "time salvation." Paul tells Timothy in 1 Timothy 4:16 to "take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." Now, it is ridiculous to conclude that Paul has heaven in mind, because I can't buy for a minute that Paul would put Timothy up preaching to folks in an unregenerate condition. The context shows that Paul is speaking of a great departure from the faith in the latter days, and says Timothy will save himself and the people that he preaches to, from these errors by being dilligent in studying and meditating upon the scriptures as he had been taught.

Salvation is a really big blanket term in the scriptures. It can refer to any number of things, such as regeneration, conversion, justification, redemption, adoption, rescue from physical harm, etc.

 

That is not what it is saying. Having faith shows that we are born again - that is what this says and it has been demonstrated through the Greek, as JoJ showed.

He also asked for any Greek scholars who said this verse means that regeneration precedes faith and no one has answered.

 

What a study of salvation!

I have read these 14 pages of post with great amazement about salvation and the different kinds of salvation and wondered if any of these people are any were near right. I guess is a great subject that could be studies until the world ended. This is how this old bald headed servent has been shown salvation by the Lord.

Salvation is a act of Gods work and not our work. Salvation is a literal change of position and standing before God.

When original man adam died spiritually before God by sinning all mankind died before God. The light of God own spirit in Adam was darkened. It went out. The Glory departed. God is light. The light that was in Adam went out.
He no longer was seen from heaven as a son of God. Nor was mankind.

Jesus Christ came into the world to bring the light back into the world. When a christian is born again the Holy Spirit brings the light of God redeemptive spirit and pours him into the vessel of that person and he become a living spirit before God once more. The color of that part of God spirit is blue. Also spoke of by Christ as the living waters in the account of the woman at the well. If you had ask me I would have given you the livings waters. That is why Jesus went to the cross to become the redemptive agent of God. When a christian receives his spirit we who were dead are now seen from on high for the very first time by God the Father as a light on the earth and a new member in the family of God. We are new creatures in Christ Jesus, we have made the leep from death into life. Jesus said I am the light of the world, he was not lieing. When God looks at you he sees the light of Jesus Christ with in your spirit.

Jesus said I will never depart from you nor leave you. He can't you are already married in the spirit. At the moment of salvation you died and became a christ man. This is the death without sting. At the moment of salvation your body actually died because it came into contact with the spirit of Christ and died on the spot, the Holy Spirit then quicked your natural body to life again. This is a from of the first death.

According to acts if you have the spirit of the Son you have the spirit of the Father. Which matches the 4 day of creation account of the two great lights set in the heavens. Many declare them as the moon and the sun. Yet it is not really what is being spoke of. These are the two great light of God given to mankind and the church. Natural light had already been created before the forth day. The two great light Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit. On the Forth day they are set in place to rule. Or 4000 years after Adams fall. Thus Christ who was the light of the world entered into the world and then assended and then the Holy Spirit was sent into the world to affect the government of God on the earth. The Church.

This is also supported in the exodious story were the spirit of God moved as a piller of smoke by day and a piller of fire by night before the people. re-persenting The Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Christ. Two different manifested froms of the same God.

Jesus Christ say it is good that I go for i shall send the Helper, the confortor, the teacher, his Father own spirit, the Holy Spirit. His is a consuming fire. When you as a christian are truly being profected into the image of Christ trials will come and you will enter into the dark valley. At that time the Holy Spirit will be established in you as a consuming fire. He comes to protect you and to train you and to teach you. He also gifts you for the work of the ministry. His is light also and is red light. He also come to burn away the things of the world in you to refine you for redeemption.

Inside the spirit of a christian are the two lights of God the one to rule by day and the one to rule by night. You are in affect a 3 fold chord. Comprized of three parts. Like unto the trinity nature of God himself. Your spirit, Christ spirit and The Holy Spirit. Thus it is writen you are gods, note in the minor. Meaning not GOD, but sons of God. A royle priesthood and holy people and blessed people.

Your spirit man looks like the Holy Spirit. A clear light blue human from. The lights of God look like the nerve paths of the body going into the arms, legs and spine and running up to the mind. And this is the image from you are raptured in
it is sown a natural body and raised a spiritual body.

Salvation is a process and a finished work. All can be saved, some will be saved. If you as a christians are born again that is great. But the offer of salvation should not be confused with the requirements of salvaton. Just like with original Adam you can lose the light of God to sin. Thus the warning of the 5 virgins. The 5 foolish and the 5 wise. If you are saved you will not sin. Consider you salvation as a free offer to from God to free you from the penality of a sinful life with conditions. For there are conditions for salvation. We enter in through the door of Christ. But we can also walk out of that door and put Christ off. Christ has instructed his instructed his people in great detail. But his people must understand that Christ has left instructions. The chief amoung these is Love. Many Christians today do not operate in the Spirit of Love. Christ has said you shall be judged according to your conduct and love. He even said many will come to me in that day and i will tell them depart from me you workers of lawlessness. They never knew him, they just knew about him.
I know Christ and the Father, I even ticked off the Father once. And woke up in the fire of hell. I got the point. He said to me, Son I saved you but I can still send you to hell.

I had tempted the Lord, Truly the Lord is just and rightious. The cost of your salvation is not a cost you paid Christ paid it. But the requirement of salvation to be finished in your life is to follow and to live as Christ before all people and the Father. That means to abide in Love and to stop sinning. Sin is not a thing we have to due, we have to live above sin. Yet when we sin we also have forgiveness from the Father becasue of Christ. But to die in some states of sin will cost you dawmnation and hell.

God has said you shall be measured and weighted according to you own action. To the mercyful he shown himself mercyful. I know of some people who attacked me for many years and never showed any mercy. The trial was like jobs. On the day of judgement those people and baptist to boot shall ask for judgement and the Lord will say to them
in as much as you did this to him you have also did it to me, and with the same mercy you used you are measured and found wanted, depart from me you workers of lawlessness.
The only law a christians has been given is to abide in love toward all. Many fall that command, it is not a subjestion it is a commandment.

I am not a great bible teacher not a preacher not a man of great learning. But I know Christ, the Holy Spirit and Father God. I am a simple friend of God. Our hope is in the fact that God is able to finish what he started. Our foolishness is to think we are not accountable after salvation has begain. Salvation must be guarded, we are told to walk the walk. To move beyond our ways and to seek his ways.

Jesus said there was a man holding a wedding feast for his son. And he sent for his friends to come to the feast and they wee to busy with all manner of affairs. So he send to others and they also were to busy. So he sent his servent to the highways and the byways. In this account at the end no one with out a wedding feast was allowed to come into the wedding. They were actually bound and case into utter darkeness. This is speaking to those who think they are saved and have a garment of salvaton but in the end they are cast into hell. Also the 5 wise and the 5 foolish virgins are speaking about people who know the new testiment of the bible but have not put on the 5 books of the tora. And put on understandings. These also do not keep the oil of the spirit alive and waste the life of the spirit. They like original Adam have allowed the Light of Christ to die because of sin. Thus they are foolish in the sight of God having wasted the gift of salvation. They started the walk as christans by strayed. They Got off course and never found the path again. They cast off Love and stopped loving people and became worse off in the end.

So which one are you would be the real question I guess.
Jesus has done his part. The rest is up to you.

 

I don't mean to sidetrack the thread, but maybe ArchAngel will allow these quotes from J. I. Packer to show that one's attitude towards soul-winning does not prove one's theology:

"Paul's ultimate aim in evangelism was to convert his hearers to faith in Christ. (Emphasis in the original--JoJ) The word 'convert' is a translation of the Greek epistrepho, which means--and is sometimes translated--'turn'." (Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God, J. I. Packer, p. 49.

Packer actually even uses the term “win souls” a couple of pages later, speaking about Paul: “His aim and object in all his handling of the gospel, even in the heat of the polemics which contrary views evoked, was never less than to win souls, by converting those whom he saw as his neighbours to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ” (ibid, p. 53).

 

Having faith "shows"?? Where is that in the verse? No offense, but you appear to have strayed completely from the Greek now. "Shows" would have to be apokaluptw or something similar.

 

I don't want to think about it! They say 10 to 20 inches! That could make it 50 inches of snow! Yikes! I'm stuck here - it's impossible to get out of this street or in - it has not been plowed yet. No mail since last Friday and probably none tomorrow or the next several days.

Well, I am with whatever JoJ said; he knows Greek pretty well and translates it into Japanese. In any case, I was pointing out that nothing in the Greek construction allows for the interpretation that regeneration precedes faith and no scholars are being quoted for that.

 

Actually, there was no thought in my mind that you didn't believe in evangelism. Sometimes on Internet forums the writer of the OP is bothered when people get away from the subject of the OP and sidetrack the thread, so that's why I said what I did.

In relation to soul-winning, I've seen Calvinists on the BB over and over object to the term, saying it isn't Biblical. So I try to post quotes from Calvinists in answer to such folk to encourage them to witness for Christ--as a Calvinist, which is fine with me! I'm not a five pointer myself (there, it's out), but my best friend for 35 years is one, and is active in evangelism, and supports our work here in Japan monetarily and by paying for Japanese tracts.

I appreciate your respect for missions. God bless! :thumbsup:

 

I agree with JoJ rendering as well and my agreement is after the fact of my own Greek studies prior to my interactions with John in the past and present.

It is because of the Greek construction people like John of Japan, me (non-cals), and even some Cals (like TCGreek) who understand the Greek construction, believe the intent of the passage is not to declare chronology nor origen of faith. This group also has within it many who are actual Greek scholars and agree with what we are saying (probably because we look at their insights to evaluate our own understanding of the original ).

Point of clarificaiton: whe I state 'we understand' it is not to state the others do not but simply to elaborate that we are not ignorant of the Greek and the constructions it can make up.

Now with that in mind I ALSO believe (and I believe TCGreek would also agree) that the structure could be looked at differently (as shown by Archangel) and it is for this very reason I state the text is not the most clear argument for regeneration preceding redemption nor is it an iron-clad argument for such.

If it were iron-clad there would be no disputing on the issue especially from the Greek, grammer or otherwise. This was my point in posting in the thread.

 

I would just like to point out Marcia, that the translators of MOST modern Bible versions, would disagree with JoJ. Nearly all of them render the phrase in such a way, that it would have regeneration preceding faith/belief. If all those who believe, "have been" (in the past, even if it was one second ago) born again/regenerated, this automatically excludes the possibility that one believes, and is then regenerated. Why? Because this statement of scripture would then be false, for their would necessarily be people who believed, yet were not born again.

Because this is the case, with most modern translators disagreeing with JoJ, as well as my own, very limited knowledge of the Greek language (4th semester, currently...), I have to say that regeneration necessarily precedes faith. Regardless of JoJ's opinion regarding aspect, both Mounce's and Hildebrandts Grammars, say that the Perfect tense refers to an action completed in the past, with an ongoing result. Most translators of MV's, such as the HCSB, ESV, etc., recognize this as referring to the "belief" (or believing) which is in the present tense. As such, they render it:

Everyone who believes (at any given present moment) that Jesus is the Christ has been born(before that given present moment) of God

 

No, that is just how YOU choose to read it (or into it). The translations are exactly as John has stated, who also is refering back to many Greek grammerians as well and not just his own thoughts and ideas. He is placing the basis of his view alone side those scholars of the Greek who state something much to the contrary of what you are looking for.

No, just your reading into it does. Why? Because the text isn't stating regeneration precedes faith, that isn't even the intent of passage based on the intent of the book and the surounding passages.

Your trying to make scriptrue say something it doesn't, in the opinion of many.
Now what is of MOST note is that John's, mine, TRGreek, and others view of this passage still does not place faith before regeneration either..

It doesn't appare you seem to get it. They don't disagree with John, myself, TCGreek, nor the many Greek scholars who agree with us. It simply disagrees with your rendering of what you think it is trying to state.

Of course you do, because without it, it cause quite a bit of problems with your current understanding. However scripture should dictate our theology not visa-versa. Your view is stated quite clearly here and why this passage MUST be stating it the way you believe. Again however the opposing view of this passage does not necessarily place faith before regeneration here either.

LoL. This shows you haven't actualy been reading what John, Arch, or myself have been writing. EVERYONE recongnizes that 'this' perfect tense is a past action with present force. No one has denied this - ever. But your entire argument is based on the supposition that their 'believing' is caused by regeneration when the statement is merely identifying why they are currently 'still' believing . This is not a statement about causation but of simple fact. The biggest key here is not only the grammer bnut the audience and the reason for the letter. That reason is so those who already believe (his intended audience) can know they are saved.
It is this maintianing of said belief (just as it is with love) that is ongoing result of being born. This is the intent of the author. The work of God (having been born) is that which is keeping them in the faith. Nothing more and nothing less.

Wrong. It isn't refering to any given 'present' moment but that those believers are presently/currently still in that state of being.

 

I have recongnized this and still do, but my statement was to remind others that since there is dispute even amoung the 'scholars' this is not an iron-clad nor difinitive verse for regeneration preceding faith.

Acatully, where I am we haven't gotten a great deal. Maybe about foot and half still on the ground. We might get another 2 inches tonight, but we live in a kinda bowl that either keeps it light or brings in the worst. So far this year it has been more cold (subzero temps - like tonight is to be -20 or-30) than snowy.

As to where to put it? I am loosing that battle as we speak :laugh:

 

You know, there are several things wrong with this statement. You are assuming that you know how the translators of all those versions would exegete the Greek. How do you know what they think about the Greek? How do you know what all of those people think about the aspect of the Greek substantival participle? All you know is how they translated, and then you believe you know the meaning of the English. Frankly, I don't think you do. Tell me, what is the syntax of the English renderings "Everyone who believes"?

I'm starting to get bothered. For the last time, I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE PERFECT TENSE, but about the substantival participle. I know full well that the perfect tense refers to an action in the past with continuing results. I've translated the Greek perfect tense into English or Japanese literally hundreds of times, and read all of my grammars about it. (I have around ten Greek grammars.) If you're going to criticize my views, at least get what I am saying right!

You know what, let's get out of the Indo-European languages and look at some Asian renderings of 1 John 5:1.

First of all, the Chinese Union Version translates PaV o pisteuwn this way, with only two characters: Fan xin. That is the character for "all" and the character for "believe" or "faith." The second character has an interesting etymology: the radical on the left is for "person" and on the right for "words," so to the Chinese the words of a person's mouth mean "to believe." It can be verb or noun, either one. You find the same character as the noun for "faith" in Heb. 11, for example. Now, believe it or not, Chinese has no verb tenses. You only know the time aspect of a Chinese verb by auxiliary words added. To make "believe" present here, the character for "now" would have to be added. It was not. In other words, the Chinese Union Bible gives no room whatsoever for the order of salvation from 1 John 5:1.

Secondly, I'll quote just one Japanese translation, since they are all pretty much the same on this verse. The Shinkaiyaku (analogous to the NASV, and the main Bible for conservative churches in Japan) has this: Shinjiru mono.... Now since Japanese doesn't have participles, it uses the plain present in this case for "believing" in an adjectival usage. Back translated into English it would be "believing one (humble form)" Now, if the emphasis was on "now believing" in the translators' minds, they would have used what is called the "-te form" with an auxiliary verb thus: shinjite iru, "currently believing one." Thus the Japanese Bible also does not allow for the order of salvation in 1 John 5:1.

I rest my case.