Featured Carnal or Lost

See, you folks can't grasp that when the scriptures say we are slaves or servants to either sin or righteousness, this is not talking about our nature at all. It is not talking about how we act or must act. It has nothing whatsoever to do with our behavior.

It is talking about whom you belong to as a piece of property.

1 Cor 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

A saved person is bought. Your body and spirit BELONG to God. You are his SLAVE, his SERVANT. It has nothing to do with how you act. If you belong to God, then you are not sold to sin.

When you sin, you sell yourself to sin. He owns you. It doesn't matter what you do, good or bad, you are his property, and he is going to pay you one wage, and that is death.

When you are saved you now belong to Jesus. He bought you with his blood. Now you are his slave, his servant. It doesn't matter what you do, good or bad, you belong to him.

This is what Paul is saying in Romans 6 and 7. He is not talking about how we act. How we act has NOTHING to do with it. Paul is talking about who we belong to, either sin (the devil) or righteousness (Jesus). You either belong to one or the other, you cannot belong to both.

An unsaved person belongs to sin. He can do good or bad, doesn't make a difference, he is going to hell.

A saved person belongs to Jesus. He can do good or bad, doesn't make a difference, he is going to heaven.

When the scriptures speak of being a servant to sin or righteousness, it is not talking about how you act, whether you are doing good or bad, it is talking about who you BELONG to.

Understand this and scripture will be amazingly easy to understand.

 

No Christian is sold under sin, we have been bought with the blood of Jesus and now belong to him.[/quote]
How many people have told you that you have a problem with comprehension?? I can see why!
Did I ever say we were sold under sin? No.
I said that it is possible to allow ourselves to be servant to sin. That is what Paul teaches. That is also what Christ taught.
He gave his disciples a warning: "No man can serve two masters."
The trouble is that many do serve the wrong master many times. They do not have Christ consistently on the throne of their heart. You speak as a Calvinist believing in Lordship Salvation. You speak out of both sides of your mouth. When did you convert to being a disciple of John MacArthur, Winman?

It is a good verse, written by the Holy Spirit. Why would you call the writings of the Holy Spirit nonsense. I agree with the teachings of God, don't you?

Tell me, what level of comprehension do you have?
Did I say "we cannot do right"? No, I never said that.
I said it is possible to be the servant of sin because we still have the old nature. I think you display some of that old nature here. If you do, that is becoming the servant of sin, not of righteousness, correct?
Read the verse again.
If you sin, post in haste things you shouldn't say for example, then are you "free from sin." No!!
We are only made "free from sin" positionally at the cross, not in practice. You sin every day, as we all do. No man has reached entire sanctification.

It is a practical chapter talking of practical Christianity.
It uses verbs like "reckon," "yield" or submit. Those are things that you must do. That is not theoretical. Either you yield the members of your body (hands, feet, eyes, etc.) as instruments of righteousness for good, or you yield those same members as instruments of unrighteousness for evil. What choice have you made. No one has forced you. God did not make the choice for you.
Again, you sound like a convert to the hard determinist position of a Calvinist where every decision has been made for you before the foundation of the earth. You sit back like a robot and enjoy while God pulls the strings of you, his puppet. When did you convert Winman? Have you lost your mind? :laugh: (free will)

no comprende??
Why did Paul say "I die daily."? Why? You don't die to sin unless you deliberately put yourself on the cross and allow your flesh to be crucified. (Gal.2:20). "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live..."
It is something you must do. "Take up your cross, deny your self, and follow me."
You deny the teachings of the Bible here. You actually think that Christ is going to do this for you when he commands you to do it!!
He is only your master if you allow him to be your master. Do you?
He is your Saviour, Yes. But is he your Lord, all the time.
I ask again: When did you become a follower of John MacArthur--A Calvinist believing in Lordship Salvation. That is what you are expressing here.

The failure to comprehend is all yours. I applaud your conversion to Calvinism, even though I am not one. It will make many people happy I am sure. It will make the board more peaceful.

 

You are the one who has a problem with comprehension, because Paul said he was "sold under sin" in Romans 7:14. Therefore it is impossible this is speaking of a born again Christian who has been bought by the blood of Jesus.

I didn't say you said anything, PAUL said he was sold under sin in Romans 7:14, therefore Paul could not be speaking as a saved man. Is this too complicated for you?

A servant can obey or disobey, this is why Total Inability is false. A slave or servant of sin can obey the gospel, and this is exactly what Paul said these Romans did in Rom 6:17-18, they obeyed the gospel and became the servants of righteousness (Jesus).

Nevertheless, that is NOT what Paul is saying in Romans 7. In Romans 7 he says he is "sold under sin" and that he was brought "into captivity to the law of sin". Therefore, this cannot possibly be a Christian. No Christian is sold to sin, and no Christian is a captive to sin, we are FREE FROM SIN.

This has nothing to do with Romans 7. In Romans 7 Paul is describing himself before he was saved, when he was sold under sin, and captive to sin.

Nice slur, I did no such thing. It is YOUR VIEWS that are nonsense.

But Paul is speaking of position in Romans 7. He is describing himself when he was "sold under sin" and in "captivity to the law of sin" for about the third time now.

Blah, blah, blah, blah.... You can always tell when you are losing a debate, you ramble on and on and on and on and on and on and on....

Your debate tactic is to TALK your opponent to death.

You are just plain wrong, Paul is writing from the perspective of an unsaved man under the law in Romans 7. He is writing from the perspective of a man "sold under sin" and a man in "captivity to the law of sin".

You can flap your lips forever, and you will still be wrong.

 

I am pretty sure there must be carnal Christians if this thread is any evidence.

Posters on both sides of this debate have manifested carnality in name called, insults, and innuendos.

If all these posts and comments are by lost people we are in serious trouble.

 

No, I refuted your position and this is all you could come up with.
Sad.

 

No, it's just your posts get longer and longer and longer and longer. You must believe in victory by attrition. You haven't proved anything, Paul said he was "sold under sin" and "brought into captivity to the law of sin" in Romans 7, this is impossible to be a Christian.

I'm not going to keep arguing with you, believe whatever you want. If you think you can convince others that Christians belong to sin, have at it.

 

I may be not understanding you but Paul was able to claim that he was bameless while he was under the law. He did not suddenly start sinning once he became a believer.

 

This is funny to watch. The original team of Icon/Judith are now arguing against each other, and the original team of DHK/Winman are now arguing against each other

 

Judith posts more solidly than most on here and I enjoy her posts. Having a biblical discussion does not equate to an argument as Judith does not have an agenda...we can interactive and exchange ideas.
Notice she is questioning what I said...but not attacking me personally as takes place in here.....if we agree or not we can question and exchange good comments and I have agreed with 90% of what she has posted overall. I hope I can provide her with food for thought as I know she is solidly in the word.
Romans 7 is a passage that takes much work to grasp.

In the first half Paul is recounting his whole life before conversion and then during conversion.....but he is telling or teaching about the reality of sin. He thought he was BLAMELESS...but he was mistaken.

He does a similar thing in Phil.3;
3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.


This I believe is why Judith might have that idea...

In romans the first part ...he explains that he thought he was okay...he thought he was alive unto God, but discovered he was not...so the law revealed to Him that he was actually guilty before God see here;

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.


He looked back now as he did in Phil 3...so he moves forward and explains how all Christians struggle with sin......but clearly states the struggle fron vs 15...into chapter 8.

I think this accounts for Judith seeing the first part...:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Judith;

vs 7-14...he explains how it happened...he began to see his real condition ...first as religious , self righteous, then as a saved person...but he is looking back...as a saved person and helping others see the same truth

Judith... I have found this helpful;
http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Miscellaneous/romans_7.htm

 

Still funny. And no, she is not solidly in the word. She has a dust deep understanding of the atonement, and really isn't interested in considering any argument which runs counter to her own.

Hardly solid

Not if you understand the biblical distinction between the spirit and the body, the nature of the atonement, and the work of the Holy Spirit in washing and sealing a believer


2Cor 4:16
Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day

1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near.

2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins?

3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year.

4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

10 we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Titus 3:5
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption (of the body)


our inner man has been washed and sanctified - perfected forever. And sealed by the Holy Spirit.

But we are still clothed with this sin-wrecked body of death.

Our mind is in a constant struggle between a sinless inner being and sinful flesh, until the day of redemption


And this really goes back to the original issue of whether or not a believer can be carnal.

Yes, he can. A believer can have his mind set on the flesh

 

Up to this point I had not been discussing Romans 7 at all. Go back. Your questions were from Romans 6 and 8.
Now, recently, you have been hammering away at having a misunderstanding of Romans 7. I will give you my understanding of Romans 7 then:

Chapter seven starts out with an illustration from the law. The woman is able to marry only when her husband dies. She is bound to her husband as long as her husband lives. Once her husband dies she is free to remarry.
So it is in Christianity. When the believer “dies to the law” he is free from the law. He is no longer under the law. Christ died on the cross. The law was nailed to the cross. We are not under law.
We don’t belong to the law. The law is not our master. We belong to another. Christ is now our master. We belong to Him, who was raised from the dead. We are united to Him as His bride. A person who is married to Christ can bear spiritual fruit,

Paul starts using the first person singular in verse 7. That is when he begins his own testimony.
“I was alive without the law once” (9) He refers to his personal experience as a child and youth, prior to his full awareness and understanding of the law and its impact.
“But when the commandment came” This refers to the significance of the law on Paul’s mind before his conversion. There comes a time when knowledge turns into a much greater comprehension. The result is the principle of sin with its presence and power.
“It sprang to life.” As a result Paul died spiritually. He realized that he was under the condemnation of sin by the law he had broken, even the Ten Commandments. This is why it is important to point out the sinfulness of mankind when evangelizing. Man has broken God’s law and therefore are sinners. The command, not to covet, is an example of the law.
Sin deceived him; led him astray, and spiritually put him to death.
However the law, instead of being sin, was holy, righteous, and good.
Did that which is good then, become death to me, Paul asks. No it doesn’t. (God forbid!) vs.13
But sin uses the commandment (that which is holy) to expose that which is sinful.
The law exposes our sinful nature Paul says.

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
--Paul is addressing Christians and is using the first person plural. We know that the law is spiritual. Every Christian knows this. It is a truth that we should accept. The law is spiritual not evil. The Law comes from God. Think back to Mt. Sinai.
Now he says, as a believer, “I am carnal sold under sin.” Or “I am unspiritual sold as a slave to sin.” It is in contrast to the previous statement. The law is spiritual, he says, but I am not spiritual. He is speaking as a believer.

The rest of the chapter (vs.15-25) Paul relates his personal experience in the first person, and consistently uses the present tense.
Indwelling sin continues to seek to claim what it considers its property even after one has become a Christian.
Paul goes into further description of the struggle within him.
That which I want to do, I don’t do. What I hate, I do. It is a struggle that goes on within Paul, and if we are honest with each other, it goes on within each of us. We all have two natures.
Thus Paul concludes:
Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
--These are not the words of an unsaved man, but rather the conclusion of a struggle of saved man.

Again he emphasizes the same thing:
Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

The law is good, but nothing good lives in me. This is his testimony as a saved man.
However the “in me” he defines as his “sinful nature.” (vss. 5, 25). The flesh is not physical but it is the way that sin expresses itself through one’s mind and body.

Romans 7 is indeed Paul's testimony.

 

I agree with you until you get to verse 14, from there on you are off. Again, no Christian is sold under sin, we have been redeemed, we have been purchased back from sin with the blood of Jesus and he now owns us. He is our new master, and it is our duty to obey him.

Verse 23 also says Paul was brought into captivity to the law of sin. No Christian is captive to the law of sin and death, Paul directly tells us this in Romans 8:2;

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Paul says in vs. 2 that the law of the Spirit of life in Jesus has made him "free from the law of sin and death" that he spoke of in Rom 7:23. NOW he is speaking from the perspective of a born again Christian.

And in vs. 1 Paul shows what he meant by being a captive of the law of sin, he was speaking of being "condemned". So Paul was saying he was condemned in Rom 7:23 when he says he was brought into captivity to the law of sin.

So, there is NO WAY Paul was speaking from the perspective of a born again believer in Romans chapter 7. Chapter 8 proves that.

It is the Calvinists especially who had to interpret chapter 7 to be speaking from the perspective of a believer, because Paul was doing many things Calvinism says an unregenerate man cannot do. Paul desired to follow the law, he loved, the law, he delighted after the law. This utterly refutes Total Inability and Calvinists know it, so they must redefine chapter 7 to agree with their doctrine.

And that is what Calvinism does whenever it runs into scripture which clearly refutes it, they just redefine it.

You can believe whatever you want, but Paul WAS NOT speaking from the perspective of a believer in Romans 7, he was speaking from the perspective of a man sold under sin who was CONDEMNED.

 

that is false!

True assurnace comes by grasping the truth that God Himself is the One that saved a sinner such as I and you, and that the bance that the same God basis of us getting right with God is by and due to the death of Christ, and His resuurection!

regardless wether Calvinist/Arminian, you can have full assurance that God saved you, and will keep you in Christ unto the end!

 

When Romans 7:13 is left in its context and interpreted by its context it contextually refers to one aspect of the believer that Paul repeats over and over “that is in my flesh……the flesh….this body of death.” The fact is that your physical body is sold under sin and it will suffer the consequences of sin – it will die – “this body OF DEATH.” Your body has not been saved from sin and will either DIE or be CHANGED but NEVER REDEEMED.
Paul is speaking of that aspect of his human nature and it is clear to anyone who will interpret verse 14 by the following context.

 

that is your positinal standing now before God, but you MUST submit yourself to the Holy spirit, and daily crucify the flesh, and take up the cross...



You can experience the freedom Jesus died to give you, but also can chose to be caught and ensnared in sinning, as being a Christian still walking in their flesh!


what the Author of hebrews was warning against, clinging unto those besitting sins that threaten/hinder our walk with Christ!

 

the sinner is under the yoke on bondage to the sin nature, mastered by it...

The Christian has been redeemed out from under that ypoke, but we can still submit back under it whenever we chose to qurch/grief the Holy spirit in our lives!

 

Paul testimony was the same as many, as they have been saved by the Grace of God, yet still struggle to do right and to live for God..

Their problem is that they are trying to do good works and stay straight by own efforts, paul revelation was that ONLY made possible by relying upon the Holy Spirit!

 

And yet you believe (unlike MacArthur and other Calvinists) that a person can be a Carnal Christian. You do hold to a boatload of contradictions, don't you?
Here is how MacArthur explains it. I hope it helps:

Do you know any Christians that still smoke? Why are they still held in captivity to such sinful habits? Do you know anyone that is perfect? We still have an old nature.
How can you believe that the carnal Christian exists and advocate what you are advocating here? You are contradicting yourself.

Depending upon what you do with your mind you may still be in captivity.

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
--The battle is in the mind. Christianity is not served up on a golden platter. It is a battle. We are in a war with Satan.

2 Corinthians 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

That war is won in the mind. The mind must be yielded to the Lord Jesus Christ. If it isn't then the flesh WILL serve the law of sin. It is the mind that must actively serve the Lord.

You haven't convinced me, and I doubt anyone else.
He describes his battle between the two natures within him.
He overcomes those battle with the power of Christ, Christ working through his mind. We are to yield our hearts (our minds) to the Lord Jesus Christ. That is the only way we can have victory in the Christian life. It is not a done deal so to speak. One just doesn't sit back in his chair and vegetate. It is an active Christian life. Our sins are paid for at the cross. We are eternally secure. There is no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. But the Christian life does not stop there.

 

Paul commands us to crucify/reckon ourselves dead to sin now, and to be filled with the Holy Spirit!

So there is indeed something God requires us to keep on doing in order to have a maturing walk!

 

I see...so you can be a son for 10 years, then when you walk away from your father for 20, you completely forget who your father is and that relationship never existed.

You are the last person to be passing judgement on anyone.