KJV- Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
NIV- Not given to drunkenness....
ESV- Not a drunkard....
Then this guy on FB says this.
ESV/NIV, as all modern translations, are based on what is known as the "Westcort/Hort" revised text, based primarily on the "Aleph" MMS, which is the oldest and worst MS. It was found in a trash can, being used to start fires! Suggest you read Dean Burgon's arguments against W/H and the "Aleph" text/MS. W/H were Satanists! I never use/consult or read any of the modern version based on W/H, except to show where they are wrong. After working with W/H on the Revision Committee, Dean Burgon resigned because he saw what they were doing to the Bible.
Is this accurate? Basically he is saying you cant trust the NIV/ESV. I do not believe him as these are my 2 best translations. Or is this guy a type of KJVO?
1 Tim 3:3 Corrupted in the modern versions?
Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by evangelist6589, Sep 29, 2017.
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evangelist6589 Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Also the ESV and NIV are not based on the Westcott and Hort text. The NA27 is not the same thing and the WH text. The very first NA text used the WH text, but also looked at other Greek texts. Whoever wrote that is conflating people and Greek texts. They are either unaware of the differences, or being completely unfair and dishonest, like Riplinger.
Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk -
The KJV is more literal (at least as far as the "wine" part is concerned) but the NIV ESV are the dynamic equivalence, bringing the meaning, if not the actual words, into English.
New Testament Company.
The Right Rev. Charles John Ellicott, D. D., Bishop of Gloucester and Bristol (Chairman), Palace, Gloucester.
The Right Rev. George Moberly, D. C. L., Bishop of Salisbury, Palace, Salisbury.
The Very Rev. Edward Henry Bickersteth, D. D., Prolocutor, Dean of Lichfield, Deanery, Lichfield.
The Very Rev. Arthur Penrhyn Stanley, D. D., Dean of Westminster, Deanery, Westminster.
The Very Rev. Robert Scott, D. D., Dean of Rochester, Deanery, Rochester.
The Very Rev. Joseph Williams Blakesley, B. D., Dean of Lincoln, Deanery, Lincoln.
The Most Rev. Richard Chenevix Trench, D. D., Archbishop of Dublin, Palace, Dublin.
The Right Rev. Joseph Lightfoot, D. D., LL.D., Bishop of Durham.
The Right Rev. Charles Wordsworth, D. C. L., Bishop of St. Andrew's, Bishopshall, St. Andrew's.
The Rev. Joseph Angus, D. D., President of the Baptist College, Regent's Park, London.
The Rev. David Brown, D. D., Principal of the Free Church College, Aberdeen.
The Rev. Fenton John Anthony Hort, D. D., Fellow of Emmanual College, Cambridge.
The Rev. William Gilson Humphry, Vicarage, St. Martin's-in-the-Fields, London, W. C.
The Rev. Benjamin Hall Kennedy, D. D., Canon of Ely and Regius Professor of Greek, The Elms, Cambridge.
The Ven. William Lee, D. D., Archdeacon of Dublin, Dublin.
The Rev. William Milligan, D. D., Professor of Divinity and Biblical Criticism, Aberdeen.
The Rev. William F. Moulton, D. D., Master of the Leys School, Cambridge.
The Rev. Samuel Newth, D. D., Principal of New College, Hampstead, London.
The Ven. Edwin Palmer, D. D., Archdeacon of Oxford, Christ Church, Oxford.
The Rev. Alexander Roberts, D. D., Professor of Humanity, St. Andrew's.
The Rev. Frederick Henry Ambrose Scrivener, LL.D., Prebendary, Hendon Vicarage, London, N. W.
The Rev. George Vance. Smith, D. D., Parade, Carmarthen.
The Rev. Charles John Vaughan, D. D., Master of the Temple, The Temple, London, E. C.
The Rev. Brooke Foss Westcott, D. D., Canon of Peterborough and Regius Professor of Divinity, Trinity College, Cambridge.
The Rev. J. Troutbeck (Secretary), Dean's Yard, Westminster.
The English New Testament Company has lost, by death, the Right Rev. Dr. Samuel Wilberforce, Bishop of Winchester; the Very Rev. Dr. Henry Alford, Dean of Canterbury; the Rev. Dr. John Eadie, Professor of Biblical Literature in the United Presbyterian Church, Glasgow; and Mr. Samuel Prideaux Tregelles, LL. D.; and they lost, by resignation, the Rev. Dr. Charles Merivale, Dean of Ely.
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The addition found in the textus receptus has nothing to do with what you have bolded
The TR has the additional phrase μη αισχροκερδη, "not greedy of filthy lucre".
1 Timothy 3:3
μὴ πάροινον μὴ πλήκτην, ἀλλʼ ἐπιεικῆ ἄμαχον ἀφιλάργυρον, (NA28)
μη παροινον μη πληκτην αλλα επιεικη αμαχον αφιλαργυρον (Westcott Hort 1881)
not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. (NIV)
not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. (ESV)
μη παροινον μη πληκτην μη αισχροκερδη αλλ επιεικη αμαχον αφιλαργυρον (textus receptus 1550MR)
not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; (AV1873)
Bruce Metzger writes:
After πλήκτην the Textus Receptus, as well as many minuscules, inserts μὴ αἰσχροκερδῆ. The words are a gloss derived from Tt 1:7 and are not present in א A D F G K L P 5 33 38 104 181 218 263 323 424c 436 442 460 462 618 623 635 920 1149 1738 1827 1837 1838 1906* 1944 2004 2125 itd, vg syrp, copsa, goth arm eth al.Rob
United Bible Societies, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, Second Edition a Companion Volume to the United Bible Societies’ Greek New Testament (4th Rev. Ed.) (London; New York: United Bible Societies, 1994), 573.
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Katarina Von Bora Active Member
Westcott and Hort Resource Centre - FAQs
You can see for yourself how they have quote mined and downright lied about them. -
evangelist6589 Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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evangelist6589 Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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So let me guess - you mentioned you were a street evangelist who occasionally has a Mike's Hard Lemonade, and this guy went to town on you for drinking.
He may be wrong, but you're still looking for justification and validation. -
The orthodox Baptist view is that a fraction of the populous is predisposed to substance abuse, and within that fraction are those inclined to alcoholism. So in light of not causing a brother to stumble we avoid alcohol so as to avoid leading someone astray.
1 Timothy 3:3 "not given to wine" is a sound accurate translation, the NASB has not addicted to wine. The word appears to carry more meaning than just spending time with wine, but also includes the idea that the behavior has deleterious effects upon the person.
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"Orthodox" view. Common, perhaps, but not "orthodox," which would mean other views are heretical.
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evangelist6589 Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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evangelist6589 Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Wrong. No mention of my street Evangelism. -
Southern Baptist Convention > On Alcohol Use In America
And there is no need to claim orthodox does not mean adherence to accepted and traditional views. Open any dictionary. -
A Southern Baptist Convention resolution does not establish "orthodoxy." Besides, that resolution does not reflect the position you offered. The resolution says nothing about causing someone to stumble; it's a pure "drinking is a sin" resolution. Pretty much the position of the churches I grew up in back in the day. (A grievous sin, on a par with dancing and wearing blue jeans to Sunday services.)
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I have been attending Baptist Churches for close to 60 years. So I probably have celebrated communion hundreds of times. All of them served grape juice, not wine.
I presented the orthodox view, presented in most of the churches where I regularly attended. The link to the SBC was simply to show one of many "avoid alcohol viewpoints held within the Baptist ranks. Note that no pro-alcohol link has been posted.
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According to your man Robinson, the current NA edition is 99.5% the same as W&H's edition.
As far as I know he died the latest into the 20th century --1906. And he had the most children --16, from one wife!
At one point Charles Spurgeon was contemplating going to what we would call seminary. He had arranged to have an appointment with Dr. Angus. However there was a mix-up. After waiting a considerable time Spurgeon walked out. Dr. Angus was in the house, but wasn't informed.
There was one Methodist in the group, but I lost track of his name. -
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The Southern Baptist Convention has been "officially" Prohibitionist since the late 1800s, always based on its effect on society. Before that it was not.
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