15 simple rules for "dictation".

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Scott J:
God has never "corrected" His Word. He has revealed it- ONCE and only ONCE... and He did it perfectly the first time. No need for correction.

When He breathed the originals there was no need for correction and He has been out of the direct inspiration business since the last qualifed recipient of inspiration died- the Apostle John.

This is a theory that has no Biblical basis. Nothing in scripture even hints that only the originals (autographs) are inspired. Scriptures are "given by inspiration". Scriptures are ALWAYS extant. Timothy was raised reading them centuries after Moses' autographs were kaplooey. How is this "Autograph-Onlyism" not preservation by entropy, or Diestic-translation of scripture?

Lacy

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

But doesn't KJVOism do the same? To roughly revise your quote;

"Nothing in scripture even hints that only the KJVs are inspired."

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Lacy Evans:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scott J:
God has never "corrected" His Word. He has revealed it- ONCE and only ONCE... and He did it perfectly the first time. No need for correction.

When He breathed the originals there was no need for correction and He has been out of the direct inspiration business since the last qualifed recipient of inspiration died- the Apostle John.

Lacy

This is a theory that has no Biblical basis. Nothing in scripture even hints that only the originals (autographs) are inspired.</font>[/QUOTE] Yes Lacy. And I have cited the proof before. Maybe you missed it or have forgotten.

The Bible itself gives qualifications for being a writer of scripture. The last qualifed writer died about 1900 years ago. No one has received special inspiration since then and no human being is capable of performing a "perfect" work without being under God's direct control.

Scriptures are "given by inspiration".

Given by whom? God. To whom? The original penman who were qualified by Him.

The proof you are missing is in the word "given". Men don't give scripture. Only God does. Men can pass it along, copy it, translate it, etc. But only God "gives" it... and the Bible is evidence of itself in that certain men were moved by the Holy Spirit.

The Bible gives no indication anywhere of secondary inspiration to non-biblically qualified men later on.

Scriptures are ALWAYS extant. Timothy was raised reading them centuries after Moses' autographs were kaplooey.

That has absolutely no correlation. The scripture that Timothy had was probably not a facsimile of the originals. It more than likely contained many marginal readings like the Hebrew texts do now. It might have been a Greek translation of the OT.

The words ARE NOT in and of themselves the scripture. The scripture is the meanings of the words or else we could never have a translation that qualified as scripture unless someone since John that I am unaware of was a prophet, holy man of old, or Apostle.

How is this "Autograph-Onlyism" not preservation by entropy, or Diestic-translation of scripture?

The same way you could not argue the same thing within 100 years of the writing the NT and continuing up to the printing press. All Bibles differed then being the products of fallible copyists just like the KJV is the work of fallible translators and a fallible text collator. Many were missing books. Some contained extra books. Some had apparent corrections. Some left obvious signs of being incomplete.

We have maybe a few hundred versions of the Bible in English with a great degree of agreement even between the best and worst. The early Christians had thousands of differing versions. Early translations introduced even more variants.

If you are right then no Christian from ever had the Word of God until God inspired the KJV translators to "resurrect" it. Your contention is beyond ridiculous.

 

[michelle]

God has proclaimed in his word the preservation of His PURE WORDS. If God allowed men's errors to stay, they would not be pure any longer and be corrupt. WE then would and could be led around by every wind of doctrine.

Titus 1

1. Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
2. In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
3. But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
4. To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
5. For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
6. If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7. For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8. But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
9. Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
10. For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11. Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
12. One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
13. This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
14. Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
15. Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Eph.4
14. That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15. But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16. From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
17. This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18. Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Ephesians 6
10. Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15. And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16. Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18. Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
19. And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by michelle:
God has proclaimed in his word the preservation of His PURE WORDS.

His pure sayings, revelations, commands, etc. It does not take one particular set of words to communicate the same things.

If God allowed men's errors to stay, they would not be pure any longer and be corrupt.

No. It would be corrupt the moment a man made the error. If He were not providentially inclined to let men's errors to stay then He would have corrected all copyists immediately and seen to it that all copies with errors were destroyed.

Since He didn't do that, your dictation to God as to what He should have done is nothing but an indication of vanity.

WE then would and could be led around by every wind of doctrine.

You are led around by a "wind of doctrine" even being in possession of a superior translation of God's Word.

By the way, that passage deals with the knowledge of God, not the perfection of the KJV. You continue to abuse scripture by foisting KJVOnlyism on it.

Titus 1....
...Eph.4.....
...Ephesians 6....

Not one of those passages says one word about the KJV being "God's very own words". Those passages were inspired by God in an entirely different language than English. By your own rule, you don't have the scriptures unless you have the exact words that Paul wrote.... and he didn't write in English.

 

[Anti-Alexandrian]

God has never "corrected" His Word. He has revealed it- ONCE and only ONCE... and He did it perfectly the first time. No need for correction.

When He breathed the originals there was no need for correction and He has been out of the direct inspiration business since the last qualifed recipient of inspiration died- the Apostle John.

So,from what I gather from your post is:

1.God inspired ONLY the originals.

2.God never corrected ANY original(even though Scripture--Jeremiah 36-- says He corrected an "original.")

3.No Greek MSS,Unical,or Papyri today or whenever bears the mark of preservation;they are the work of men only.

4.No English,German,French,Italian(or any other language)bears the mark of being Scripture.

5.You (or anybody else according to you) have NEVER seen or read one verse or part of a verse of Scripture a day in your life;even though Paul said the Bible in ole' Tim's lap (AND MINE) WAS/IS Scripture.

 

[michelle]

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There are always problems with translations, or copying. Everyone knows and understands this. However, regarding God's words, we must approach this first understanding the POWER AND CONTROL of God concerning his words. In the cases that you make mention of previous Bibles, those attribute to spelling, printing, and typeface issues. The language of English was being established. But we see that God in his CONTROL AND POWER over his words, saw that they were CORRECTED.
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I am sorry if this confused you all. When I said:
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But we see that God in his CONTROL AND POWER over his words, saw that they were CORRECTED.
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I was referring back to:
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There are always problems with translations, or copying.
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To say it better: God in his CONTROL and POWER over His words, saw that those errors made by fallible men, were corrected.

Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Scott J:
The Bible itself gives qualifications for being a writer of scripture. The last qualifed writer died about 1900 years ago. No one has received special inspiration since then and no human being is capable of performing a "perfect" work without being under God's direct control.

And no qualified writer has written any scripture in 1900+ years. I never ever once heard a KJVO say that they have. I believe we are arguing about the same (2000 year old) 66 books. My point was that God never said anywhere in the Bible he would inspire just the autographs.

Given by whom? God. To whom? The original penman who were qualified by Him.

Given by God, yes. Given to whom? To his people "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

The proof you are missing is in the word "given". Men don't give scripture. Only God does. Men can pass it along, copy it, translate it, etc. But only God "gives" it... and the Bible is evidence of itself in that certain men were moved by the Holy Spirit.

The Bible gives no indication anywhere of secondary inspiration to non-biblically qualified men later on.

The proof you are missing is WHAT is given and why. If only the autographs were given then we are up a creek.

It might have been a Greek translation of the OT.

It most likely was an inspired Greek OT! (The universal language of the day, inspired regardless of the "original" Hebrew.)

The words ARE NOT in and of themselves the scripture. The scripture is the meanings of the words or else we could never have a translation that qualified as scripture unless someone since John that I am unaware of was a prophet, holy man of old, or Apostle.

That didn't make sense. Please explain. Words? Meanings? How can you have one without the other?

All Bibles differed then being the products of fallible copyists just like the KJV is the work of fallible translators and a fallible text collator.

An assumption. Which Bible bore fruit?

The early Christians had thousands of differing versions. Early translations introduced even more variants.

How early is early? What was their spiritual state when the earliest Greek copies bore so much fruit? What was their spiritual state when the Old Latin translations bore so much fruit?

If you are right then no Christian from ever had the Word of God until God inspired the KJV translators to "resurrect" it. Your contention is beyond ridiculous.

That still kills me. If by "Word of God", you mean "Restored perfect Word of God" (and you are right) then No Christian EVER had the "Word of God" and STILL doesn't. So what's so bad about that?

Lacy

 

[Trotter]

NO doubt God has and continues to preserve his words, and they are preserved perfectly, as they are His words. This is what we believe. However, many mv proponents do not really believe this, even though they think they do, and say they do. There are scriptures missing from the mv's and many problems with them, that PROVE they are NOT God's pure words that he has preserved. They have been changed, not just in the manner of one word changed to another with the same meaning (which isn't a problem in most cases). Far much more than that has happened. This is how we KNOW they ONLY contain the words of God, but are not the whole counsel of God, and are not pure. Therefore, we know that God's hand is not in them

Ya know, Nat, it's both pretty funny and very sad.

Here Michelle (and others) are, looking down their noses, condemning anything that doesn't say "King James" on the binding. They keep harping on "changes" and "additions" and "deletions". So, what is the big deal? I'll tell you...it's their measuring stick.

The problem with the King James Only outlook is really very basic. They have decided that ONE work of man is perfect (revisions? what revisions? stand back, boy, 'cause THUS SAITH THE ...). And since it is "perfect" (their word), it is to be used as the measure of "perfection". See the contradiction there?

If the King James is perfect (snicker, snicker), then of course nothing else but the King James would measure up (down) to it. But, by using the object of comparison as the rule of measure, you make any judgements arrived at look just as foolish as the ones doing the measuring.

People, if you want to compare versions, compare versions. Me, I'm tired of hearing the same old tune of "Things that are different are not the same"...Duh!

In Christ,
Trotter

 

[Dr. Bob]

Originally posted by natters:
"Corrected"???? God's preserved word needed correcting??? If something was the preserved word of God, it would not need "correcting" - isn't that your whole point with modern versions? Now you yourself are arguing for correction! If Gods word was PRESERVED before the KJV, it wouldn't need correcting by very definition of preservation.

There is no explanation for illogical thought. One simply considers the source.

I've been hanging on the Versions forum into its fifth year and have yet to see a single verse supporting the KJV (any revision).

 

[michelle]

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Not one of those passages says one word about the KJV being "God's very own words". Those passages were inspired by God in an entirely different language than English. By your own rule, you don't have the scriptures unless you have the exact words that Paul wrote.... and he didn't write in English.
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If many would take off the "label" of "King James Version", and look at ONLY the scriptures within and revealed, then you might have understanding.

John 16

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

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No. It would be corrupt the moment a man made the error. If He were not providentially inclined to let men's errors to stay then He would have corrected all copyists immediately and seen to it that all copies with errors were destroyed.
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Many like to devise of their "own mind" what they "think" God would do, rather than "believing" what HE has EVIDENCED He has ALREADY DONE.

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Since He didn't do that, your dictation to God as to what He should have done is nothing but an indication of vanity.
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Statements like this one, clearly indicate doubt of the scriptures and what God has said about them, deny the EVIDENCE OF THEM, and to which are the very pure words of God preserved for the faithful Psalm 12, etc.

Beware, for this kind of thinking revealed in the above quoted statement is where vanity (the vanity of one's own mind - contrary and above that of what God has said and done) comes from: Genesis 3:1

Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by michelle:
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No. It would be corrupt the moment a man made the error. If He were not providentially inclined to let men's errors to stay then He would have corrected all copyists immediately and seen to it that all copies with errors were destroyed.
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Many like to devise of their "own mind" what they "think" God would do, rather than "believing" what HE has EVIDENCED He has ALREADY DONE.

Michelle, Show me proof and I will change my mind in an instant. As I have told many on this board, KJVO would be an easier path for me than the truth is.

I used to be KJVO. But because of a love for and desire to know the truth, I began to study both sides. It didn't take someone from the non-KJVO side to convince me. I looked at the supposed "proofs" for KJVOnlyism and found too many false arguments, fallacies of logic, and outright lies.

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Since He didn't do that, your dictation to God as to what He should have done is nothing but an indication of vanity.
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Statements like this one, clearly indicate doubt of the scriptures and what God has said about them, deny the EVIDENCE OF THEM, and to which are the very pure words of God preserved for the faithful Psalm 12, etc.

Only if I deify your opinions the way you have. I don't doubt what God says... I doubt what you say. Then again, I am not confused about the difference like you are.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by michelle:
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No. It would be corrupt the moment a man made the error. If He were not providentially inclined to let men's errors to stay then He would have corrected all copyists immediately and seen to it that all copies with errors were destroyed.
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Many like to devise of their "own mind" what they "think" God would do, rather than "believing" what HE has EVIDENCED He has ALREADY DONE.

Why won't you address an argument head on Michelle? Is it that deep down you know that the truth and the facts and the scriptures are on our side but you are into your false beliefs so deeply that pride won't allow you to escape?

 

[michelle]

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No. It would be corrupt the moment a man made the error. If He were not providentially inclined to let men's errors to stay then He would have corrected all copyists immediately and seen to it that all copies with errors were destroyed.
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Why is it hard for you to believe that God DID correct men's fallible errors? I mean, don't you believe that the faithful believers who were indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God, would revere and love God's word enouph that they would have take special care and caution in handling God's words? It has been done for the last 350 years! Don't you? I mean, do you not make sure that when you are giving scriptures, that you do your best not to make an error? Why then, would it have been any different for them? And why is it, that you believe, only the Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic speaking people had access to God's word and not anyone else? What about those who didn't speak these languages? How then did they have God's words as he promised to every faithful believer? Isn't this the same thing as what you claim is one of your problems with the KJVO position (even though we do not believe this)?

By the way, I have not apologized to Ransom, because I have not been convinced that I am in error regarding what I had said. I know he wasn't lying (he believes this to be true), but I doubt the texts to which he relies upon.

I am asking these questions sincerely, trying better to understand your position. I really do not want to argue, and I really don't like to, and feel it is very unchristian behaviour. I do not like it when I become this way, and it is difficult to overcome, as each one of us is passionate about what we believe in our hearts to be true. I am trying my best with the help of our Lord, to handle this issue in a more loving and gentle way. I do hope you understand that I love you all as my fellow brothers/sisters in Christ Jesus.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I do hope you understand that I love you all as my fellow brothers/sisters in Christ Jesus.

How can you say that when you regularly question the salvation of those who disagree with you?

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by michelle:

I really do not want to argue, and I really don't like to, and feel it is very unchristian behaviour. I do not like it when I become this way, and it is difficult to overcome, as each one of us is passionate about what we believe in our hearts to be true.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

Michelle, I don't think it is so much about passion. But what we are trying to tell you is that we believe you have been misled. I don't think we get the feeling that you are very willing to take a look at the other side of where you are. When we take a serious look at the other side it always strenghtens us. It either confirms what we believe or causes us to be challenged.

 

[michelle]

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How can you say that when you regularly question the salvation of those who disagree with you?
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No I haven't. You are all taking what I write out of context. It also seems on my end of things, that many question my faith. Many have gone to the extremes of calling me a heretic! Both sides of this debate feel this same way at times, but I think it comes down to misunderstanding what others are saying.

Regardless of what you think I mean, I really do love you all as brothers and sisters in our Lord Jesus Christ. Otherwise I wouldn't be coming in here and discussing this issue with you all. It would be far better for my natural self, to not bother at all with this, and say who cares. But I do, very much care and love you all. I know it doesn't seem like I do at times, and that is why I am making a special effort here, to let you all know.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

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Michelle, I don't think it is so much about passion. But what we are trying to tell you is that we believe you have been misled. I don't think we get the feeling that you are very willing to take a look at the other side of where you are. When we take a serious look at the other side it always strenghtens us. It either confirms what we believe or causes us to be challenged.
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I have looked on the other side, and before I knew anything about this issue, I too believed that all versions must be of God. Until I started reading a modern version that was given to me in the beginning of my faith (totally unaware of this issue). The Lord's voice was not present to me in that version at all. I did not make much of it at first, but the Lord eventually showed me many things over the course of time that I knew was not right. When I saw how the scriptures were altered from what I had, this was a conviction, that something was not right. Not of my own self, but from the Lord in my heart. Then I started to find out more about this issue, and I have never doubted the KJB, nor have I ever found an error. I have found things to be confusing, but these things can always be explained, but we just have to study with humble prayer and desire to understand. We have to let the Lord show us, not us showing ourselves. Sometimes, understanding doesn't come right away. Sometimes, when a passage is difficult to understand the full meaning, I meditate upon it, and it is so wonderful when the Lord just gives you that understanding. Sometimes, when you least expect it. This is why I do not believe in the lie out there, that the KJB is difficult to read so we need an easier to read version. It is not difficult to read. It is difficult to understand the spiritual meanings and applications to our own lives. I found that God's words are like a puzzle, that the more one reads and studies, the more the pieces of the puzzle fit jointly together nicely. This can only be by divine design and providence, just as also the universe and all creation attests to, so also does his word. This is why I come here, to share with you all this beautiful and wonderful truth, of what our loving Father in heaven, and our Saviour Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit has done for each and every one of us. Praise his Holy Name! When I read the Psalms, it is as though my heart is leaping out of my chest for joy, as I feel in my heart those very words alive and true! This is how I KNOW that they are his very pure words.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Many have gone to the extremes of calling me a heretic!

If you are ever called a heretic report the post immediately.